Taking Sides: Rap vs. Rock

Well, actually listening to MIKE LADD at present - so you're wrong again - I agree with Sterling about raps diversity.i AM SUCH A SAP FOR RESPONDING TO YOU - but I know that and revel in it - sometimes we Brits are painfully self-aware dontchaknow - even your humble narrow-minded Racer.

... ahort for Andrea

OOPS..CAN'T TYPE CAUSE i'M SOOO ANGRY(YAWN) so you don't play ego games at work .. Hmmmm.

always a pleasure, sweetie...

The rap and media equals violence bit ignores that violent crime in the U.S. went down precipitously in the U.S. in the 1990s, all this after gangsta rap went overground, and the teen population was increasing at rates unseen since the original baby boomer era (and, I'd assume, it's them whose judgements you characterize as being stunted by rap and other media, aren't making enough pains to escape ghettoized conditions, etc.). What's more, violent crime among teens went down considerably in this period as well. I'm sorry I don't have exact numbers, but they'd be simple to find.

Ah, but those school shootings, eh?…

I just can't keep away,moth to the flame-hiccup

Scott, I would think you would be aware that the decrease could range from stricter law enforcement, such as in NYC, which is why people love Giulliani so much. Of course they hate him for different reasons, I guess.
And, And-re-a, I'm not playing an ego game, nor am I getting any pleasure out of this, really. Just making sure I'm understood.
Is all music really the same? Why did the last Lollapalooza end in flames? A: Egomaniacal raprock nitwits Limp Bizkit and their under-the-influence fans.
I happen to not enjoy the sound of rap music much anymore. Some, I do like, but I don't build my image around it. And, obviously, not all of any genre of music is "good" or "bad".
Most of rap is, however, egomaniacal. Yes, the same way rock stars can be. However, I don't generally listen to music that has lyrics centered around how great the singer is. This is what most rap music is, from the very beginnings of rap music. "I'm _______ and I get respect..." (a million and one ways of saying "I'm better than you are")
So, that's it. If you think rap is the same thing and delivers the same message as, oh I dunno... Combustible Edison, Flock of Seagulls, INXS, Pink Floyd, Duran Duran, The Beatles, Sonic Youth, Camper Van Beethoven, Flaming Lips, Rezillos, Dinosaur Jr., Minutemen, Firehose, etc.... then, I guess there's really nothing I can say, except...
I don't remember any of these genres of music ever creating much controversy due to violent imagery in their lyrics. Also, I have a hard time finding any "fuck you, I won't do what you told me" lyrics among these bands. (or if it's fuck me nigga, ya know it's fuck you.)

Hmm, actually I would say the Clinton administration relaxed the emphasis on law enforcement as a means of crime prevention (although, you're right, Guiliani certainly hasn't), but I also was not --and would not -- suggest that there was any single reason for the decrease in U.S. violent crime over the past decade, simply poking holes in the argument that there is a link between gangsta rap and a motivation to commit , or a justification for commiting, crime.

Or, simply one generation moving on, giving up or dying off, while the newcomers may have learned to fear rampant violence. Things come in cycles, but there can be no doubt that the voice of one man can cause many deaths (think of Hitler, if you must).

so that bloke from PM Dawn is like Hitler - hey you're you narrow- minded about anything Mr Perspective

So, rap vs. rock, then.

hey you're you narrow- minded about anything Mr Perspective

First of all, I'm not sure that sentence makes sense, but I get the jist. I believe you are trying to say I lack perspective because I said the guy from PM Dawn is like Hitler.

Well, that could be because I never said that.

Try to follow along with a logical argument, would you? Thanks.

If you think rap is the same thing and delivers the same message as, oh I dunno... Combustible Edison, Flock of Seagulls, INXS, Pink Floyd, Duran Duran, The Beatles, Sonic Youth, Camper Van Beethoven, Flaming Lips, Rezillos, Dinosaur Jr., Minutemen, Firehose, etc.... then, I guess there's really nothing I can say, except... I don't remember any of these genres of music ever creating much controversy due to violent imagery in their lyrics.

Have you never heard _The Wall_ or seen the video for "Girls On Film"? You don't remember the minor media frenzy over "Suicide Blonde"? The negative press reaction to "Take The Skinheads Bowling"?

The fact that you can blithely say "rap is all about violence" makes me completely discount any argument you've made so far as that is blatantly untrue. Violence can be a part of rap, but it can also be a part of any genre. Hell, the last big hit the Dixie Chicks had was "Goodbye Earl". You're also missing the point that someone could be spending all of their time listening to Opus Akoben, Priest Da Nomad, Poem-Cees, Unspoken Heard, and other DC-area peace-and-love hip-hop artists and denounce all of rock as Satan-obsessed pit of slime and mysogeny based on DeathMetal.com. Your argument about rap being obsessed with itself is specious, as well, because rock music is also obsessed with itself, as Ally pointed out. If _any_ of the bands you've listed have _never_ written a song using the words "I", "me", "mine", or "myself", I will be shocked and stunned.

Dan, I said rap is all about rhyming. I said most rap, from the beginning has been egomaniacal

Using the word "I" in a song, does not make a song egomaniacal. Following it with "am the best", however, is.

Are you getting this yet? Suicide blonde, the wall, take the skinheads bowling... this is not the same as constantly singing about "putting a cap in your ass" or how you are still the best.

SO YOU LIKE sONIC yOUTH - hey you must like Slayer or Skrewdriver - coz they're rock as well.

Geordie, when did I say I like Sonic Youth? I do like Slayer, but as I said earlier, Slayer represents pure fantasy and has little to do with reality. I never saw Tom Araya in the paper, arrested for possession of a curvey-bladed dagger. When I want to hear the hardest shit I can stand, I'll put in Slayer. This is a rare occasion. There is little to do with reality at all with Slayer, unless heaven and hell is your bag of tricks. If this is the case, then I would say the bible is the ultimate influence, right? How many people were killed in the name of "god"? Bad influence. I'll freely admit Slayer is a bad influence, if you'll admit [not all, but most popular] rap is. Slayer also poses little threat to society for a few reasons: it is ugly and loud and, like I said, does not center around any supposed "reality". I am aware of the random church burnings surrounding Norweigan Death Metal and the fact Count someone (now Burzum) killed someone and that someone from Mayhem blew his brains out and a photo was taken and used for an album cover. I would not suggest this as MTV heavy rotation fodder, either.

Point taken. I shouldn't have put that thing in quotes because it made it look like I was quoting you rather than paraphrasing you.

I'd also like to point out that:

- There's nothing inherently wrong with songs that state "I am the greatest".

- Queen's "We Are The Champions" and "We Will Rock You" are both wildly self-absorbed.

- A good 85% of Morrissey's lyrics are wildly self-absorbed.

Part of the point that I'm trying to make is that dismissing rap as a genre in general because of its most popular segment is as silly as holding up examples of violent lyrics in rock music and dismissing the entire genre as violent. This isn't even taking into account the near-obsession people had in the 80's with blaming bands like WASP, Iron Maiden, Megadeth, Slayer, etc for kids who formed suicide pacts, kidnapped and killed someone, or dabbled in Satanic worship. (If I wasn't at work, I'd see if I could scrounge up links for you.)

At any rate, there are entire collectives of people in the hip- hop community who are NOT about gunplay, bling-bling, hoes and bitches, and thug life. I mentioned those DC artists for a reason, although you can get the same type of thing from De La Soul, The Roots, A Tribe Called Quest, Bust Rhymes, Queen Latifah, Del Tha Funkee Homosapien, Black Eyed Peas, Digable Planets, Common, and Dead Prez.

Actually, I'll confess, I don't really like Slayer that much or any of the bands I've actually mentioned here. They're so-so. Wouldn't fight for any of 'em. I think Flaming Lips "Soft Bulletin" is very good, though. Very little negative about that album, for sure. Mmmm... I've been sort of up in the air about music lately, but I sure as hell don't listen to anything that's super rebellious, angry or egocentric, unless it is for the purpose of amusement, as in Slayer and DMX. I still like De La Soul, Old Run DMC (nostalgia), Beastie Boys on occasion, but overall, I think rap is more limited simply by it's rhyming delivery style. If it became singing, there would be more variety, but it would no longer be rap, even if it continued to have the same subject matter.

I wasn't really trying to piss everyone off. I just really don't like the attitudes associated with rap. Other attitudes I dislike: punks, headbangers and ravers.

It would still be hip-hop, though (see Nelly and City High).

I must say that by sweeping aside the hip-hoppers, headbangers, punks, and ravers, you seem to have dismissed the origins of a good 90% of the ILM readership... :)

Anyway, I think I see your point clearer now. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it seems much more rational than it did when I first started in on this thread.

Dan, you're right. I'm not into rap to know about indie rap artists, who more than likely, are far superior to the popular rap acts I'm familiar with. That seems to be the case, generally, when indie vs. mainstream (though I don't mean to be elitist!). I was, indeed, speaking of the popular rap I know of, mostly based in NYC at this time. It's bound to go back to west coast. I know nothing of English rap acts. >sigh<

Tell me, can I still claim to hate rap so long as I don't give reasons why? :)

just when i was getting nostalgic for usenet. . .

anyway, what tom said. listen to more rock, find rap more interesting right now.

tom urged me to post my assertion that if pm dawn = hitler then krs-one = churchill. that is all.

Neuromancer, have you ever actually listened to rap? You come off as someone who got all their ideas about rap from Time magazine or something. You throw around cliches about rap's misogyny and violence like some PMRC loon who's never actually heard any rap outside of the most offensive lines from a particular song from 1993 plucked out of context and made into anger-inducing sound bytes.

You turn an argument about music into some bullshit story about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, and end up lambasting people for not being able to do likewise. Stroking your own ego on a music forum does little to help your credibility, especially when you're criticizing rap artists for doing the same thing.

And BOY are there some disturbing racial undertones in your comments. You like DMX because it's some of the "stupidest shit you've ever heard," and that amuses you. You constantly talk about laziness, as if you had any idea what goes into making genuinely good hip-hop. I don't even know what else to say, I'm speechless. I think your comments speak for themselves, and since most of the posters to this forum seem like genuinely intelligent people who care a great deal about music, I think they can see right through you, too. I don't know if I'll ever be able to take anything you say about music seriously again, and I've never said that before.

Clark, what the hell are you talking about? These are all common, prevailing themes in rap currently. Yes, "Gangsta rap" was a "flash in the pan" as someone said, but I could never tell the difference. Gangsta rap was west coast, I was once told. Now it's east coast again. So what? I hear the same exact shit whenever I take a ride in my friends car in the latest rap they've got going, whatever it is. All I ever hear about is hangin with the niggas, a nigga that turned out to be no good, a nigga that's proud of being no good (this would go with the playa/play hater dynamic someone mentioned before), treating women like shit, getting back at people who talk shit, using drugs or references to selling drugs. I'm not totally against drugs, just bored of them, and don't particularly find it positive or uplifting. Who are you listening to that has an entire album full of songs that have nothing to do with these things? I can't imagine the list is very long. What to the rap about, if not these things?

And Clarke, if you didn't notice, my big bragging story of "pulling myself up by my bootstraps" was not hypocritical. It was a response to the suggestion I was a middle class white guy, which makes the assumption I don't know what this stuff's all about. Did you not notice that?

I would also like to suggest my "racial undertones" are like every thing else you've artificially concocted. I am speaking about the white kid across the street where I live, for instance, who stares at me everytime I go to the corner store, in his ridiculous rap outfit, who I've seen buy 5 blunts at a time from this same corner store, who is alwyas riding his little bmx bike. I am speaking about all types of rap people, Asians in Flushing, too, but I specifically mentioned latinos and blacks because they are typically considered underprivaledged minorities. Well, in NYC the only real minority are Asians. Whites, blacks, hispanics are almost 30%, 30%, 30%. There is no "man" holding these underprivaledged down. I know plenty of educated minorities doing quite well who came from Bed Stuye or crappy parts of Queens and the Bronx. With certain people, you just can't broach such subjects, because they will scream "racism"! If I was racist, I don't think I'd have a problem saying it, because that would be what racism is all about.

The typical rap copout is how the cards were stacked against them from the start, so they learned the hard way, but now here they are, rap stars, and they're gonna try to better themselves (by singing about violence one day, partying the next, I guess? Whatever the market demands, I suppose) Get your head out and learn to read

This is preposterous. I'd be willing to bet even the pinefox, aka he who does not know TLC, has listened to more rap than this one has - you've already said that your basis of familiarity is popular East Coast stylings. All I have left to say to you, neuromancer, is this: you want another form of music where being in a gang gets you more cred? Look no further than rock music. Or does the term "mods and rockers" mean nothing to you?

To answer Sterling's question, cos he probably feels a bit bad that his question has fallen to the wayside because of some ridiculous rantings about innercity failure and how all rap fans are lazy blunt- smokers: I have a problem with the idea of rock versus rap, rock versus pop, one form of music versus any other. They're all valid in their own rights, given the right artist and right song. There are things you can do in the context of rap music that you do not normally find in rock, and certainly vice versa. Rap music is of course infinitely more suited to dancing though, and you know how I feel about dancing.

I didn't answer the question in the first place because of this quandry I have. I don't feel a particular genre is any better than the other. I think my record collection is fairly well split between what is traditionally rock, what is traditionally pop, what is traditionally rap, and what is traditionally r&b. None of them are better than the other - it's a bit like "Who do you like better, your mom or your dad?" for me. It's the reason why I had to boil the rock vs. pop question down to the attitude stylings of it all (that and the fact that I have no definition of what pop music is). I can't deal with a sweeping genre question, personally, because I can see what is inherently "better" in each one, and just because one particular aspect is "better" in one genre doesn't mean it goes above the others, because it's invariably weak in another aspect.

So, if that makes sense.

Mods and rockers. Do they have songs about how they are more "mod" than the other bands? Or is this just a typical human situation that has nothing to do with the music? I never listen to rock music that says, "I'm the rockin of the rockest best believe I rock". Feh.

Wait, wait, wait -- PM Dawn = Hitler, KRS-One = Churchill? Are you on crack, Ethan? Yes, I am an unashamed PM Dawn fan. We might have to start a new thread. ;-)

Well, I for one am astounded that we've gotten this far down the page and no one has invoked Public Enemy yet.

The bottom line for me is that I don't listen to a lot of rap music because it's not really my background. Quite simply, I don't relate to a lot of it. That said, I find pockets that speak to me for one reason or another. Early Public Enemy is one (and, for the record, is an excellent example of actually saying something meaningful, keeping a killer rhyme going, and avoiding gratuitous boasting and violence). I also really liked the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy. More recently, I really got off on Mos Def's Black on Both Sides. I'd even go so far as to say Gil Scott-Heron who, while not precisely a rap artist, is probably far more hip hop than many of the mainstream artists carrying the flag today.

Like Ally, I refuse to take sides on this issue, because I don't think it accomplishes much. Both genres have their high points and their low points. At its best, hip hop and rap have a way of being able to say something very directly, something political, and even activist, without appearing too preachy or overly earnest (compare to Rattle-and-Hum-era U2, which was downright embarassing). Good rock, on the other hand, can engage people very emotionally without necessarily seeming too syrupy. That's not to say that the reverse isn't true, it just seems far more rare. At the worst of both genres, you get vile filth. You don't want to put shitty-ass metal into your ears, and you likely don't want to put self-congratulatory rap into your ears either. Dig for the good stuff and in the end, if you don't like it you don't like it. There's nothing wrong with that.

Actually, Sean, I mentioned Public Enemy elsewhere, but I was focusing more on the antisemetic comments that eventually forced them to break up. It's funny that fighting the "power" was no big deal, but when it was understood that the "power" might include jews, it was a different story and even Public Enemy understood that. And I don't believe that one member of such a tight group never vocalized his mistrust of jews to the other members. I also don't think it's impressive that Flavor Flav went on to become a crackhead or that Chuck D went on to support and work with violent, cocky peckerheaded rappers.

Maybe we can do this one another time...

But hey, if Sterling reads down this far, I would like you to explain more fully your assertion that rap lyrics speak to more aspects of society than rock. At first this seemed completely preposterous to me. Then I realized that "rock" or country or whatever all have their own specialized audiences, so this made a little more sense. Still, I can't see Rap lyrics speaking to more people than any other genre, probably less. More young people, sure, maybe, especially young males. But that's only a small percentage of the population.

The thing about all these rock questions is I just don't know what that word means anymore. I hear "rock" and I always think of Peal Jam and Creed.

My answer: Electronica (ho ho). Call me Switzerland.

Wow, who woulda thought politics excites people more than music?

Anyway, I find it interesting that the mainstream (over in the US at least) seems willing to glom onto such rap acts as Missy Elliot, Busta Rhymes, Wu Tang, Outkast, all of which are far more interesting than what passes for mainstream rock Limp Bizkit, Creed, Dave Matthews. Rap seems to get more room to be strange and experiment a little before it drops off the MTV radar.

Ah, good that they were mentioned. I agree that the incident with Griff was bad news all around, but I don't really think that that detracts from the strength of their earlier albums. That might actually make an interesting thread on a slow day when there isn't so much else going on: Does an artist's personal life necessarily compromise the quality of their work? Artists are often moody, temperamental assholes, often with viewpoints that we consider reprehensible, but if that's not reflected directly in their work, should the work be judged with those things in mind, or just on its own merit?

I'll admit that at one point in time I would have been tempted to agree with the gist of neuromancer's posts, because it's true that I am increasingly annoyed with the seemingly ever-present posturing and bitches and bootie attitude within the rap genre (yeah, whatever the hell genre means anymore) at least as it's popularly promoted on TV and such. But then, I'm similarly annoyed with the fake artiness of the Matchbox 40 or Creed type of rock stylings, AND the sheer calculatedness of so much of the pop image, AND the hokeyness of 'new country', and so on. That's just me having a tendency to resist the lowest common denominator in most of all things - time to fess up - I'm not much of a pop fan at all really. :) So yes, that's me - it's not the genre. There's a preconception now, of what rap music is *about* instead just of what it sounds like. For the most part, the industry and artists seem to comply with this rather than resist the formula, and even when they do push the envelope - it's not in some wild new direction but rather dead straight ahead (show even MORE booty, be MORE blatant with exhibition of material wealth, go totally over the top and write entire song about thong underwear). Themes that have become synonymous with a genre itself, are a formula for dull predictability no matter what type music you're talking - but with rap - unfortunately - I find more of those themes to be unappealing in basic concept so I like less of the music. I don't know, I guess it is industry laziness, which I don't like, but that shouldn't (and doesn't) discount the genre for me. There is a lot I enjoy even if I don't relate to it directly, like Non Phixion, Deltron3030, Dr. Octagon, etc. I know those are probably hideously predictable coming from a non-pop lovin' white girl like me, but it's a genuine reflection rather than an affectation. Appropriating the rap/black experience as a way of being "open-minded" and accepting of it is a bit off. If *I* (repeat *I*) ever start throwing around stolen slang like 'bling bling' and start talking about 'fronting' and other things that I don't really get, I honestly hope that someone slaps the hell out of me, cause I'd be a big fat phony. But I digress...

You did NOT see me type booty like, three times just now. You did not. Oh man. Caught on tape. ;)

To answer the query posed about "speaking to more aspects of society" -- I meant by this the breadth of topics rap covers. Rock has the "rock 'n roll salvation" angle while rap has the "I'm a dope MC, I smoke MCs, flow better than the river Ephesus, y'all bow down before my genius" type angle. But beyond this current rap, even just charting rap, manages to deal with A) more complexities in relationships B) particularly the question of how money changes love, which is very important C) a wider range of political topics D) existential questions E) a wider range of urban enviornments (Philly vs. LA vs. Atlanta, etc.) than rock does.

Sure, this often gets cast into "ghetto" terms, but that's merely a stage which these larger items are played out on, and these larger items have slightly more universalism to them. Music coming from the suburban tip I find very confining these days, as there's simply a more limited range of experience to draw on.

Without citing tons of examples, I don't think I can do a better job than that right now.

This thread is, in its way, delicious. Heck, just when it couldn't get any better, *I* even got mentioned. And Tim Hopkins used the phrase 'on the money', which was entertaining.

I still don't really think I understand the claim that rap is more about rhyming than other forms of pop lyric are. Neuromancer, I was talking about writing, not listening. Like Tom said, there can be pleasures in rhyme. There can also be, I suppose, a kind of useful restrictiveness - a framework which actually makes it easier to write.

well now its obv. why youre so anti-indie...we're on ops. sides of this spectrum. i think there is nothing political left in rap. its become all about building a fan base with white middle class boys who'll buy their cds in the attempt to identify with what they are not and rebel against what they are. it may have started out political but it lost its steam. all the songs seem to revolve around some girl named 'shorty', a club, money, jewlary....etc. im not denying you can dance to it..its good a background noise. but if you want something political look elsewhere. if you get brave enough try the queercore scene which still has its political push thanks to queers being one of the few minorities left that get blatent discrimination. for band examples try team dresch and the butchies. **azalea, rock over rap

taking sides: rap vs. queercore

I always felt that rock music communicated more feeling than rap, and was able to osmose its stance into the crowd with sound as well as words, and that is where rap always seemed limited to me. Rap always seemed, to me, to be more of a display of skill while rock was more of an expression of emotion. A compairison of the two is like compairing a collection of poems and a dictionary. Both excell at their specialty. My true musical devotion goes to punk rock, and seconds closely with heavy metal. Punk rock always seemed, to me, to be a median point between rock and rap. It successfully communicates feeling through music but manages to put the singer in a position where a silver tounge is necessary to move the audience. Few punk bands can successfully do an instrumental, as many rock bands can. Few punk bands can freestyle a song out of nowhere. Almost all rock fans despise punk, almost all rap fans despise punk, and most punk fans will despise just about any other kind of music on the planet.

First of all, if it weren't for Rock n' roll there would be no rap at all. Rap is a no talent peice of crap. All you need to do is know how to sing. As in Rock you need to know how to play instruments and sing. Rap just uses crappy techno sh*t. I admit Modern Rock n' roll sucks or most of it. But classic rock will live on, it was at it's top. Rap should only be targeted for older people, as people for 16- and up. Rap is too vulgar for little kids to listen to.

Khell apparently feels that Li'l Kim encapsulates all that is rap.

Lil Kim uses crappy techno shit? I thought she used Puff Daddy.

She was on a repeat of the Chris Rock show last night, where she did a song that I think is called "The Papers" which is essentially her ranting over the slow part of "French Kiss" by Li'l Louis. Now, I happen to love the original, but I could see why someone who doesn't like house or techno would hate it.

Dan, you're thinking of "Custom Made (Give It 2 U)", which is excellent. I mean, anyone who can make a line like "my pussy's custom made/it comes in different flavours" sound totally natural and normal must have some talent.

Hey, I really jammed on the song. My wife thought it was trashy nonsense, but as a newly conservative housefrau she's required to say stuff like that.

ROCK ON BITHCES. I VOTE ROCK

In my opinion,ROCK is better than RAP. so ROCK RULZ.

"If you think rap is the same thing and delivers the same message as, oh I dunno... Combustible Edison"

i know that this shit is over, but i just notcied this: what the fuck?

what 'message' do combustible edison deliver at all?

easy listening pastiche? wearing 30's evening gowns?

using cigarette holders? man i cant see any fucking message there.......what a weirdo

First of all, I'm pretty sick of accusing someone of having "racist undertones" just because I don't like rap

For myself, I dunno where I stand in this discussion. One one hand, I really like rap. On the other hand, much/most of the lyrics are really abhorrent. I don't think there's many people here who disagree with that. But like the rest of us I just ignore it. But in the end I think we have to face the music: All of those messages aren't for naught. I don't think rap straightforwardly and uncomplicatedly _causes_ drug use, violence etc; I do think it desensitizes and normalizes that kind of stuff, so that it's more easily accepted by the impressionable.

So no, I don't agree with the media stereotype of rap as a one-dimensional monster that directly causes violence and drug use and mistreatment of women. But I'm disturbed at the message it sends. I think the alarm bells really started when I watched the Hype Williams film with Nas and DMX, _Belly_. It wasn't the _glorification_ of crime that bothered me so much as the normalization. The way it was made to look quick and easy and a viable lifestyle. Sure, there were token attempts at making the story a moral fable, like the ending (and, laughably, Nas reading from a morality pamphlet entitled something like "Personal Betterment"), but they were easily overpowered by the ill-gotten glitz.

Maybe what shocks me most in some rap lyrics is an acceptance and shrugging-off of murder. That really goes too far.

Crime is a quick, easy, and viable lifestyle, no?