also i can't comment
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 23:00 (nine years ago) link
I cut-and-paste a comment for Kevin once--if there's something you want to say, post it here and I'll move it over there (making it clear it's not me).
― clemenza, Tuesday, 25 November 2014 23:06 (nine years ago) link
nah thanks tho. i just wanted to vote. but apparently bill wants me to pay 3 bucks a month for the privilege of voting alongside enlightened baseball fans who put bernie williams on their ballots without irony
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 23:45 (nine years ago) link
If you're saying James's readership is unenlightened...I'll take a pass on that one.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 26 November 2014 00:07 (nine years ago) link
I will say that $3 a month for the most influential baseball writer ever doesn't seem all that unfair.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 26 November 2014 00:08 (nine years ago) link
naaaaaah it is for me
and i don't think the paid accounts are any more or less 'enlightened' than any other ball fans. keeping the voting behind the paywall just rubs me the wrong way.
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Wednesday, 26 November 2014 01:15 (nine years ago) link
Enlightened is your word, and I'm not sure where you get me saying there's a correlation between a paywall and the level of discussion...$3 is too much for you, because you have little interest in James--that stands to reason. I think for those of us who pay it, it's amazingly cheap. Especially given the opportunity to engage in some back-and-forth with James. I only wish I had a chance to do the same with Pauline Kael or Greil Marcus.
Bernie Williams falls well short of a HOF career in terms of his career numbers, but from 1995 to 2002, when he was the centre fielder on a team that won four WS, his 7-year peak (37.5 WAR) was not that far below the average HOF centre fielder (43.5). He was exactly the kind of player who gets overlooked, because he did a number of things well instead of one or two things really well. He's hardly the most egregious name to put on a HOF ballot.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 26 November 2014 01:24 (nine years ago) link
i'm sure he's a hall of fame guitarist
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Wednesday, 26 November 2014 01:32 (nine years ago) link
I'm 100% behind Trammell in the HOF.
― Van Horn Street, Thursday, 27 November 2014 22:21 (nine years ago) link
You would have to be quite the ballplayer to be in front of him in the HOF.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Thursday, 27 November 2014 22:46 (nine years ago) link
I can only read part of this, and probably the same for you:
http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/buster-olney/post?id=8805&ex_cid=Insider_share_8805_Why+I%27m+abstaining+from+HOF+voting
― clemenza, Thursday, 4 December 2014 20:22 (nine years ago) link
>To repeat: I think Mussina, Schilling and Raines and others are Hall of Famers, but it’s better for their candidacy if I don’t cast a ballot.
cuts out before I can any sense of his logic here.
― AKA Thermo Thinwall (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 5 December 2014 17:52 (nine years ago) link
the electorate is the problem
As it stands, once you are eligible to vote for the Hall of Fame, you get that vote for life, which means that a great many voters who are no longer covering baseball — including many who never really covered baseball in a meaningful way — get a vote. Editors who oversaw baseball writers for a time. People who covered baseball for a few minutes during the Carter Administration but later went on to do other things. At the moment, the BBWAA will take away everyday credentials from a member if he or she is not affiliated with a BBWAA-approved outlet for two years, yet it will not take away a Hall of Fame vote from someone who has had no professional need to pay attention to baseball for decades.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/12/05/the-hall-of-fame-ballot-limit-is-a-problem-but-the-composition-of-the-electorate-is-a-bigger-one/
― things lose meaning over time (Dr Morbius), Friday, 5 December 2014 17:57 (nine years ago) link
Randy Johnson is a photographer now? Here's his photo spread from Slipknot's Knotfest festival in RS:
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/pictures/randy-johnson-knotfest-photos-20141030
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 5 December 2014 22:26 (nine years ago) link
A couple of pieces on Dick Allen (the Times piece is from yesterday); some context for his malcontent reputation that shouldn't surprise anyone.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/cooperstown-confidential-dick-allen/http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/sports/baseball/weighing-the-complexity-of-a-hall-candidate-and-his-times.html?_r=0
― clemenza, Sunday, 7 December 2014 14:44 (nine years ago) link
nothing from the golden era committee
― mookieproof, Monday, 8 December 2014 19:11 (nine years ago) link
Disappointing. Dick Allen only fell a vote short (ditto Oliva). Not sure if that's his one chance, or whether there'll be others. I sensed from the Times piece and from a Facebook discussion group I'm on that there was some real advocacy out there for him.
― clemenza, Monday, 8 December 2014 20:18 (nine years ago) link
Baseball Writers Assn votes to recommend to Hall of Fame that voters be allowed to vote for up to 12 candidates instead of 10
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 9 December 2014 20:14 (nine years ago) link
so here's the full list for 2015 with how long each player's been on the ballot and their previous vote%
Craig Biggio 3rd 74.8%Mike Piazza 3rd 62.2%Jeff Bagwell 5th 54.3%Tim Raines 8th 46.1%Roger Clemens 3rd 35.4%Barry Bonds 3rd 34.7%Lee Smith 13th 29.9%Curt Schilling 3rd 29.2%Edgar Martinez 6th 25.2%Alan Trammell 14th 20.8%Mike Mussina 2nd 20.3%Jeff Kent 2nd 15.2%Fred McGriff 6th 11.7%Mark McGwire 9th 11.0%Larry Walker 5th 10.2%Don Mattingly 15th 8.2%Sammy Sosa 3rd 7.2%Randy Johnson 1st Pedro Martinez 1st John Smoltz 1st Gary Sheffield 1st Brian Giles 1st Nomar Garciaparra 1st Carlos Delgado 1st Darin Erstad 1st Tom Gordon 1st Jason Schmidt 1st Cliff Floyd 1st Jermaine Dye 1st Rich Aurilia 1st Troy Percival 1st Aaron Boone 1st Tony Clark 1st Eddie Guardado 1st
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Tuesday, 9 December 2014 20:23 (nine years ago) link
Really is amazing how strong the return candidates are as a group. Who's the worst player among them? Probably one of the bottom two, Mattingly or Sosa, unless you think it's McGriff. And, Sosa's issues aside, that's 600+ HR, almost 500 HR, and a guy who was brilliant for a short period of time.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 10 December 2014 13:31 (nine years ago) link
Oops--missed Lee Smith's name. Most people would pick him.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 10 December 2014 13:32 (nine years ago) link
Results for the poll Dave Fleming runs:
http://www.billjamesonline.com/2015_bjol_hof_results/
― clemenza, Tuesday, 30 December 2014 14:03 (nine years ago) link
LOL "at I really respect Schilling for being a complete idiot with no filter" comment.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 30 December 2014 15:38 (nine years ago) link
asserting that the single most awful personal life thing about a baseball player is a factor that makes you (the writer) even more likely to respect him is confounding as fuck, and I say that as a sox fan
― i'm tellin you it was kenard (slothroprhymes), Tuesday, 30 December 2014 16:05 (nine years ago) link
I think the quotation marks are a stretch, Alex.
While I seldom share either his political or scientific opinions, I always appreciated his willingness to put himself out there. Schilling seems like one of those people who is fundamentally honest; one of those persons who can’t help but be themselves. This means saying what they think, even if those thoughts occasionally cause controversy. I like people like this: they seem somehow more true than all of us who end up living multiple versions of ourselves. In an era when most athletes stay behind the curtain, it was nice to have a guy who didn’t come to us filtered through the reports of others.
I'd hardly say that's branding him an idiot.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 30 December 2014 16:27 (nine years ago) link
I'm branding him a complete idiot. Fleming is politely skirting around him being a complete idiot.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 30 December 2014 16:29 (nine years ago) link
I understand that you feel that way. But I don't see that Fleming is politely skirting around anything he feels himself--you're conflating your opinion with his.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 30 December 2014 16:30 (nine years ago) link
Sure so what?
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 30 December 2014 16:32 (nine years ago) link
Well...I don't know. That presenting your own opinion as someone else's is misleading?
― clemenza, Tuesday, 30 December 2014 16:34 (nine years ago) link
That was my interpretation of that paragraph. If I didn't make it clear that's my opinion I'm sure that Dave Fleming will live.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 30 December 2014 16:35 (nine years ago) link
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/story/what-would-strategic-hall-of-fame-voting-look-like-010115
wholeheartedly endorse this
― k3vin k., Thursday, 1 January 2015 23:25 (nine years ago) link
Randy Johnson – best left handed starter of his generation and a unique player.Pedro Martinez –arguably the hardest right hander to hit at his peak, just nasty. At his peak, he’s as good it gets.John Smoltz – I think the guy has a decent shot to go in on first ballot it seems, although I don’t think he was quite that good. He was very good and should be in the hall. Smoltz was the most overpowering of the big 3. Verlander kind of reminds me of Smoltz.
Gary Sheffield- HOF numbers, but I got to think the roids and just Shef’s mercurial style will drag him off the list and into discussions for a decade or more.Brian Giles, Nomar Garciaparra- decent career, too many injuriesCarlos Delgado 1st Darin Erstad- had one great season and a couple decent ones. Dude liked to get his shirt dirty.Tom Gordon- awesome nickname, ties to pop culture with Steven King…good pitcher and with better health might have taken that next step.Jason Schmidt- best pitcher in the NL for a couple yearsCliff Floyd- Nice career, maybe not as great as expected. He’s kind of a step down from Crime Dog.Jermaine Dye- This was a guy Atlanta moved probably too early, although he had some lost seasons. He was really good in his 30s with the White Sox. I still don’t quite get how his career ended, as that still seems weird.Rich Aurilia- He had some good seasons and some injuries. The guy had some pop for a shortstop.Troy Percival- decent closer Aaron Boone- Never as good as advertised but people know who he is for that HR against the Red Sox. As a Reds fan, I dug it when him and his brother played in Cincy and would have liked to have had some of those bats with the pitching they have had the past couple years.Tony Clark- Best player on some crappy Tigers clubs.Eddie Guardado- he pitched a lot, dude had some flair on the mound.
― earlnash, Friday, 2 January 2015 04:29 (nine years ago) link
Delgado was a step beneath the Crime Dog too, still a very solid player.
― earlnash, Friday, 2 January 2015 04:31 (nine years ago) link
BP's staff of 40 votes
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=25275
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Friday, 2 January 2015 15:24 (nine years ago) link
if only Tim Raines had that much support with the rest of the voters.
― AKA Thermo Thinwall (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 2 January 2015 21:01 (nine years ago) link
I wonder how two presumably enlightened voters (or maybe it was the same person) decided that Johnson and Pedro didn't deserve a vote.
― clemenza, Friday, 2 January 2015 21:24 (nine years ago) link
that person or persons included them on the unlimited ballot so they just pulled the "doesn't need my help" strategy
what i want to know is why the h*ck someone votes for bonds but not clemens
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Friday, 2 January 2015 22:43 (nine years ago) link
Okay. I can understand (without necessarily agreeing) doing that for the actual HOF, but strategic voting on a make-believe ballot strikes me as a little silly.
― clemenza, Friday, 2 January 2015 22:49 (nine years ago) link
well looking at walker's limited vs unlimited votes it might not be nuts
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Friday, 2 January 2015 23:01 (nine years ago) link
Posnanski recently had a good column on the same limited/unlimited disconnect:
http://joeposnanski.com/joeblogs/a-hall-of-fame-experiment/
― clemenza, Friday, 2 January 2015 23:45 (nine years ago) link
the HOF is also make-believe
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 3 January 2015 14:25 (nine years ago) link
nah man, it's real! i've been there and beheld it with mine own eyes!
― AKA Thermo Thinwall (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 3 January 2015 21:11 (nine years ago) link
One of those vote trackers--not sure if it's the only one:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AmkBNPY405WAdFBOUVBhbjNRZjYzbWI2d201bm0tSmc&toomany=true
He's got about 120 ballots on there right now.
― clemenza, Sunday, 4 January 2015 00:37 (nine years ago) link
ESPN's voters:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/12118585/craig-biggio-randy-johnson-pedro-martinez-mike-piazza-tim-raines-john-smoltz-elected-espn-2015-baseball-hall-fame-ballot
Surprised by Raines' strength relative to Piazza and (especially) Bagwell.
― clemenza, Sunday, 4 January 2015 21:36 (nine years ago) link
2 votes for mussina smdh
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Sunday, 4 January 2015 21:45 (nine years ago) link
Votes can be explained lots of different ways, but I look for internal consistency. I expect Bonds and Clemens to have identical support, whatever that is. I expect Bagwell and Piazza to be very close--both near 100%, both around 70%, whatever, but not separated by 20% (conceding it's a small sample, and that just means two or three votes). With Raines's support so strong, I assume it's a group with a solid sabermetric grounding--and if so, Mussina getting only two votes makes no sense. (Only two votes doesn't even make sense by traditional wins/ERA criteria, not unless you make zero adjustment for era.)
― clemenza, Sunday, 4 January 2015 22:03 (nine years ago) link
― linda cardellini (zachlyon)
i wonder if there are a few voters who are skeezed out by the mindy mccready thing.
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Monday, 5 January 2015 00:28 (nine years ago) link
had no idea about that
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Monday, 5 January 2015 00:35 (nine years ago) link
The support that Smoltz is getting (compared to Schilling and Mussina) is just baffling.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Monday, 5 January 2015 09:14 (nine years ago) link
Mussina's timing and luck couldn't have been worse. Nine top six Cy Young finishes, but he never won. If Roger Clemens didn't get all that run support in '01 and go 20-3 then he might have won (I think he had the worst run support of any qualified starter that year, or close to it). He joined the Yankees the year after they won 4 WS in five years, and retired the year before they won their next one, so he wasn't a "winner". He starred for those great Orioles teams of the late 90's, but never won a championship because of, yeah, the Yankees. He came into the league just as offense started to spike and retired just as it nosedived. He could have pitched another year or two and maybe hit some round numbers in his career stats (300 W, 3000 K) but didn't. And now he's fighting for attention on the ballot with Unit, Pedro, Smoltz, and others. Just in time to hit the ballot when the eligibility period got lowered from 15 to 10 years. Two years ago his top competition would have been Jack Morris.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Monday, 5 January 2015 09:26 (nine years ago) link
unit going in as a d-back
― mookieproof, Friday, 16 January 2015 16:25 (nine years ago) link
lol'd at first and then remembered that it makes the most sense
good for them
― qualx, Friday, 16 January 2015 16:28 (nine years ago) link
Seems fair. Most successful years were there.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 16 January 2015 16:28 (nine years ago) link
kind of a misnomer for "chooses barely legible logo for plaque"
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Friday, 16 January 2015 16:29 (nine years ago) link
ie i'm still free to think of him as a Mariner.
also if he left the cap blank ppl would think he was from 1884.
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Friday, 16 January 2015 16:30 (nine years ago) link
i wasn't really around then but johnson as a mariner just seems like a prelude for the relevant years.
― qualx, Friday, 16 January 2015 16:33 (nine years ago) link
http://i.imgur.com/H54qV01.jpg
i'll just picture this
― Francis Björk Morgan (Will M.), Friday, 16 January 2015 16:38 (nine years ago) link
I said on a Facebook group that even though Johnson is still basically a Mariner to me, he has to go in as a Diamondback; easy call.
― clemenza, Friday, 16 January 2015 20:24 (nine years ago) link
it's NOT "going in" -- it's just the goddamn plaque. THERE IS NO OTHER FACTOR INVOLVED IN THIS CHOICE.
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Friday, 16 January 2015 20:30 (nine years ago) link
yeah shouldn't be surprising that he is entering the hall of fame as a member of the diamondbacks
― qualx, Friday, 16 January 2015 21:17 (nine years ago) link
are you secret zlyon?
― mookieproof, Friday, 16 January 2015 21:21 (nine years ago) link
he is dead i am the replacement morbs troller
― qualx, Friday, 16 January 2015 21:42 (nine years ago) link
when i visited the hall of fame, i went in as a blue jay!
― AKA Thermo Thinwall (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 16 January 2015 21:42 (nine years ago) link
whatever happened to jqhiggins aka the other orioles fan
― mookieproof, Friday, 16 January 2015 21:43 (nine years ago) link
i went in as a Brooklyn Bushwick
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Friday, 16 January 2015 21:48 (nine years ago) link
― mookieproof, Friday, January 16, 2015 9:43 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
he is dead there can only be one
― qualx, Friday, 16 January 2015 21:54 (nine years ago) link
so do i need to watch any speeches from yesterday?
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 July 2015 17:05 (eight years ago) link
Pedro dancing of course.
― Van Horn Street, Monday, 27 July 2015 19:34 (eight years ago) link
also still sad at the non-inclusion of Minoso.
― Van Horn Street, Monday, 27 July 2015 19:42 (eight years ago) link
so, fewer voters
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/baseball-joe/blog/p-r-or-not-hall-change-is-good-one-072815
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 29 July 2015 17:26 (eight years ago) link