Zeuhl (Search and Dëstroktïẁ)

The problem I have with Zeuhl is that I heard Ruins/Koenji Hyakkei first and went back to the source... Magma sound so comparatively lumpy and lifeless to me and I've never really been able to get into them. I'll keep trying though in the hope that one day they'll grab me.

Not right now though, I'm hearing Bondage Fruit I/II for the first time and holy shit this is hitting the right spot

Been hoping to see Dun - Eros for a decent price for quite a while. I always hear it's one of the best.

Well, I do know that this is a really controversial topic and heatd for a lot of people, and I don't want to start a fight either, but I do think a lot of the points Marc Adler has made on this topic are, I think, very solid and substantiated. Aside from anything else I regard the interview in Reflechir & Agir as conclusive evidence that Christian Vander is a person with strong fascist sympathies. Of course that does not invalidate his music, but I do feel strongly that people need to be aware of it and take it into account when assessing the work of Magma; I regret that I was ignorant of it for so long. For me, in my personal judgment, I do think of "Zess" as a piece of music which does more harm than good.

Onto happier topics. I definitely do recommend an early '80s record by a band called "Presage", which is supposedly italo-disco, but a lot of the music has very much in common with zeuhl, particularly the track "Cyborg". While we are talking about the intersection of disco and zeuhl (which of course also occurs on Magma's _Attahk_ record to a degree), a guy by the name of Brian Ellis has a really nice Giorgio Moroder style version of De Futura.

Anything on Soleil Zeuhl is highly recommended. Dun (which has a really odd combined flute/tuned percussion attack... I guess maybe one could compare it to Pierre Moerlen's Gong but it doesn't sound anything like them) as well as Archaia are excellent musically. One can also speak of Triple Zero, the Universal Totem Orchestra, etc...

http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.ie/2012/07/english-translation-of-vander-interview.html

I just read that interview. From the comments I can see that the magazine was a fascist one but that's where the trouble seems to be, whether he gave an interview because he had similar views or just did an interview for the sake of doing an interview.

Interesting about the Mike Oldfield thing.

Dunno about Univers Zero and Present but Art Zoyd really don't owe a whole lot to Magma, their vision is way more gothic, old european decadent.

What harm can Zess do if nobody really knows what he's saying?

Going to listen to the full "Zess" now from Epok 4. I've never really been into this piece, and always wished it was a lot shorter. However, like a lot of Magma (and Offering) I may come around to it on many repeat listens. The stuff about Vander and fascism has been around forever -- but the verdict on whether or not he's a Nazi, or at least respects the audacity of someone like Hitler, depends on who you ask. I've asked multiple people who played or toured with him, and have received as many variants on the answer as people asked. My personal feeling is that there's no way an artist who believes in the power of love, as Vander has always said, and in the vision of Coltrane, could be a Nazi. Maybe he appreciated the intense devotion and power wielded by Hitler, who knows. Maybe he appreciates power and intensity of any kind, as many artists do -- the power of music isn't something you can touch or own, though you can feel it, and a lucky few can wield it, at least for a time. Vander seems enigmatic about quite a lot, and it wouldn't surprise me to see these rumors boil down to something like that. It would be a MAJOR BUMMER if it turned out that he was actually a Nazi or into fascism -- but probably not as big a disappointment as his Jewish wife and bandmate of 40 years would have.

The problem I have with Zeuhl is that I heard Ruins/Koenji Hyakkei first and went back to the source... Magma sound so comparatively lumpy and lifeless to me and I've never really been able to get into them. I'll keep trying though in the hope that one day they'll grab me.

On the Ruins vs Magma angle, I was into the former before the latter. I'd read so much about how much Ruins and Koenji were influenced by Magma, I checked them out. It turns out Ruins and Koenji only really take superficial aspects of Magma's sound (and also other groups like Area, This Heat) -- the core of what I consider "zeuhl" isn't necessarily about a heavy, powerful sound. There's actually a lot of delicacy and straight out prettiness to it, and to me, there's a greater kinship between Magma and, say, Steve Reich or Philip Glass, than Ruins. In fact, even bands like Eskaton and Weidorje, who are more obviously indebted to Magma than Ruins, don't quite nail the mysticism or, gulp, spirituality of Magma's music. To me, more than the weird combo of operatic/soul singing or strange sci-fi backstory, it's the spiritual aspect of Magma that makes their music unique.

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By the way I agree with Dominique's take on the "Vander is a Nazi" thing - I think he's got a lot of vices and it seems like he's constantly contradicting himself every time he speaks. When I listen to the music I don't feel anything opressive about it - it sounds very spiritual and pure to me. I never understood the Mike Oldfield thing either; does anyone but Vander have any clue what part of "Tubular Bells" ripped off MDK? I would never associate those pieces.

I assume Zess is still incomplete? Has he changed his mind about recording the whole thing?

The story I heard was that it wasn't MDK Vander accused Oldfield of ripping off, but another piece called "La" Dawotsin. The beginning of "La" Dawotsin does indeed strongly resemble Tubular Bells. On the other hand, the first known recording of it is, I believe, from 1977, whereas the Tubular Bells demos date back to '71, before Oldfield ever met Vander, plus Tubular Bells is really quite a lot better than "La" Dawotsin. So I'm not exactly very sympathetic to Vander's claims on this.

I absolutely agree that Vander is a complex person, and I'm not saying that we should only think of him in fascist terms. I just get disturbed when I hear people say he couldn't possibly be a fascist, or if he is he's not a "real" fascist, whatever it is that means these days. Above all I don't think it's right to try and make excuses for his fascist sympathies. He's certainly not making excuses for them. Particularly words like "spiritual" and "pure" (gulp!) are good descriptors of Vander's music but are really not at all incompatible with fascism.

Liking Vander's music doesn't make one a fascist, nor do I think that music as unabashedly strange as Magma's possesses a serious threat to humanist ideals, but as popular as Marine Le Pen is in France these days I think these aspects of Vander's work need to be taken seriously.

does anyone but Vander have any clue what part of "Tubular Bells" ripped off MDK?

Speaking of which, compare the intro of this with the intro of "Kohntarkosz (Part Two)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFv2mDbiEiY

Glad that wasn't taken to harshly, I didn't mean to come on so strongly, thanks guys. The music is what counts for me in the end, either way.

Too harshly that is, whoops.

J A Caesar's Shin Toku Maru album is supposed to be a sort of classic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svr8QxXqCI4

μουσική is a greek word

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hOK7bU0S1Y