Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

That's so stupid. "Hey, buy our definitive remasters with their bonus discs of stuff, but keep in mind ... they may not be definitive, save some cash, wink wink." In another life Jimmy Page made "Friday the 13th" sequels.

"I can't tell you what's coming, can I?"

YES YOU CAN, YOU DOUBLENECK MORON.

I know the answer: more Zeppelin stuff.

Goddamm, that rough mix of "No Quarter"

I've heard the plans for the Coda reissue are spectacular, suggesting they knew no one would buy it unless they saved a load of good unreleased stuff for it.

^^30 minute "Bonzo's Montreux" megamix.

feat Puffy

WE INVENTED THE MEGAMIX

bought the III remaster & am enjoying it immensely

that is all

Klosterman interviews Page in GQ, in which Jimmy is up to his usual hyper-defensive antics, but I thought this was interesting (and overdue):

CK: I was surprised that in the recent documentary on [Cream drummer] Ginger Baker [Beware of Mr. Baker], he takes some shots at Bonham's musical ability. You just never hear other drummers making that criticism. He's usually so untouchable.

JP: That's an interesting film, because of the way the film starts. Doesn't it start with Ginger hitting the director with a cane? I did see the film, and I know what you're talking about. I was a bit disappointed by that. His criticism was that Bonham didn't swing. I was like, "Oh, Ginger. That's the only thing that's undeniable about Bonham." I thought that was stupid. That was a really silly thing of him to say.

"Oh Ginger(paws)

I mean, Ginger is a dick...though I guess I do get where he's coming from in terms of how he views music...(and I say this as a huge Bonham fan), but I'm sure Baker doesn't really rate Bonham or Moon because from what I could tell he doesn't really respect rock musicians or rock music at all...he's a jazz dude ultimately and he had proven that he could hang with serious jazz dudes in a way that I doubt Bonham or Moon could have, so to him they don't have a lot of respect

that said the who and zeppelin are both 10x better than cream so who cares

Ginger is a funny/cantankerous dude but matt otm re: Zeppelin and the Who >>>>>> Cream

he had proven that he could hang with serious jazz dudes in a way that I doubt Bonham or Moon could have

This is true, but neither Bonham nor Moon had those aspirations like Baker did. And Baker couldn't have hung with Zep or the Who.

(and Elvin Jones once said of Baker, "They should make him an astronaut and lose his ass," while praising Moon's playing in the same interview. Baker probably wasn't too happy about that.)

Classic rock, nice.

"(Elvin) Jones expressed satisfaction with the work of Keith Moon with the simple words, “The man is a drummer.” That must have been like having God part the clouds, look down at you and nod, “This one I like.” (On the other hand, exposed to some jackass — i.e., Cream’s Ginger Baker — dishonoring his beloved instrument of choice, Jones shifted about painfully before offering the lost soul some much-needed career advice: “They should make him an astronaut and lose his ass.”)"

Were the members of Cream interested in being the best rock band they could be, like Who and Zep? Their composition dynamics and what they were after seems very different to the other two

Lol at that Elvin Jones quote
In fairness, Ginger on the Masters of Reality album wasn't a million miles away from Zep, or some of the heavier Baker Gurvitz Army stuff

Were the members of Cream interested in being the best rock band they could be, like Who and Zep?

I think Cream thought they already were the best (hence the name). It's not that they didn't work hard, but they seemed to have a less-agitated, more casual attitude. They didn't think they had as much to prove as Zep or the Who did.

Love the part in A True Testimonial where every one talks about the MC5 mopping the floor with the conquering English rock gods

Did anybody here listen to Baker's 2014 album, Why? (punctuation in original)? I got it in the mail on Monday and checked it out this morning. It's pretty good; it's him, Pee Wee Ellis on saxophone, Alec Dankworth on bass, and Abass Dodoo on percussion. Some old jazz pieces, some re-recordings of tunes from earlier Baker albums, one tune by Ellis...very laid back, a totally non-showboaty blues-jazz album. Definitely worth hearing.

I like his album with Fela (and his documentary about the period). Cream has always bored me for the most part.

can anyone confirm or deny that there are audio issues on the 'houses of the holy' vinyl pressing? the reviews on amazon are alarming:

http://www.amazon.com/Houses-Holy-Remastered-Original-Vinyl/dp/B00M30VKWM/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1418244690&sr=1-1&keywords=led+zeppelin+houses+of+the+holy+vinyl

Hmmmmm. Almost bought that. I hope there aren't issues. II sounds great.

ginger baker's jazz drumming is so leaden and heavy-handed compared to any jazz dude though

I like his Laswell album on axiom.

Oh, and the one with Frisell.

the doc made me want to check out ginger baker's air force, seemed like kinda sick big band 70s rock action

I know that Baker is held in high regard by some, but oftentimes I've found myself listening to his drumming and wondering exactly why that is. He comes across as an obnoxious, cantankerous dick as a person too. I dunno, I just haven't heard anything that he's done which has impressed me in the same way as, say, Mitch Mitchell from the Jimi Hendrix Experience, let alone Bonham or Moon.

I like Cream -- even the live stuff -- and while I think Baker has a somewhat unique voice on the kit, I always thought he was vastly overrated, particularly next to Bonham and (especially) Moon. I think Baker revered certain drumming traditions, whereas Bonham and Moon expanded on the language of those traditions. And the fact that they blew past him, while he was busy respecting the rules, no doubt irritated him to no end.

fwiw, though, Baker concedes that Moon used a double-bass setup before he did:

Actually Moonie [Keith Moon] did it first. We were at a Duke Ellington concert where Sam Woodyard was playing. All of his drummers always played two bass drums and I was very impressed with Sam and some of the things he did with two bass drums. Moonie was there and I said, ‘I’m going to get two bass drums’ so I asked Ludwig to make me a kit whereas Moonie just went into the drum shop and bought two Premier kits and joined them together. So he actually did it before me, but we both got the idea at the same place and time.

Mmm, think Sam beat them both, there...

there's a whole big steve hoffman thread or two about the sound issues on houses of the holy, particularly the distortion on the track "the ocean." i think the bottom line is that if you order it from europe you'll get the version pressed at the right plant w/o distortion, and if you order it from the u.s. you'll probably get the one pressed at the wrong plant.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/distortion-on-led-zeppelin-houses-of-the-holy-vinyl-remaster.389892/

Haha Zeppelin vinyl pressing fuckup, that must be a code red on the Hoffman boards

I know that Baker is held in high regard by some, but oftentimes I've found myself listening to his drumming and wondering exactly why that is. He comes across as an obnoxious, cantankerous dick as a person too. I dunno, I just haven't heard anything that he's done which has impressed me in the same way as, say, Mitch Mitchell from the Jimi Hendrix Experience, let alone Bonham or Moon.

have you seen the doc?

have you seen "Gonks go Beat" ?

Haha Zeppelin vinyl pressing fuckup, that must be a code red on the Hoffman boards

― you say tomato/i say imago (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:13 PM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hahahahaha! I must confess though, I lurk there from time to time and often find what they have to say extremely useful when it comes to the matters of pressings and general audiophile geekery!

have you seen the doc?

― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:16 PM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The one where he comes across as an obnoxious, cantankerous dick?

ginger baker's jazz drumming is so leaden and heavy-handed compared to any jazz dude though

― festival culture (Jordan), Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:05 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OTM.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Cream as much as anyone who enjoys that band, but Baker's drumming just doesn't excite me... and never has!

Yeah I honestly love those goofs at Hoffman and there are some seriously knowledgeable people on there. I think I was first aware of it in those dark days when we found out the Beatles vinyl was being sourced from digital *shudders*

One of the biggest boners in the Baker doc is when he rips on John Bonham for not swinging enough or something (unless I'm making that up). I like Ginger Baker as a drummer just fine, but I wouldn't want him sitting in for Tony Williams any time soon. Like, even here, is Blakey dumbing himself, trying to outrock Ginger, or is Ginger trying to outjazz Art?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qghrsBfSbgk

But then there's this, where Ginger is really getting it going, like a "real" jazz drummer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEpMLiqzZd8

I like Ginger Baker as a drummer just fine, but I wouldn't want him sitting in for Tony Williams any time soon.

Ha, that reminds me, Keith Moon was also Tony Williams' favorite drummer. "He's beautiful. Totally free."

Like, even here, is Blakey dumbing himself, trying to outrock Ginger, or is Ginger trying to outjazz Art?

I don't necessarily get the sense that Blakey is trying to outrock Ginger; maybe more showing that he can do everything Ginger can do, plus everything Ginger can't do.

Seems to me Baker is in a halfway house of neither being the premier jazz or rock drummer of his generation, not that he had to be, but i cant imagine conversation based purely on his prowess is anything like what it was decades ago

Baker is an OK jazz drummer with just enough swing to make his rock work sound cool and interesting. I don't think the apposite comparison is Bonham or Moon; I think it's Bill Ward, who actually swings harder at times, but would have been totally incapable of handling a real jazz set.

Yeah. Bill Ward can swing. Moon is a mess. Bonham can groove better than any of them.

Moon is sort of a mess but what an incredible mess
The Who is basically 4 dudes trying to show each other up

Nobody's mentioned Charlie Watts yet?

Then again, it's a Zep thread, not a Ginger Baker one.

Baker is the worst cunt I've ever had to spend time with.

he is a dick, but tbf he is also pretty funny
http://arthurmag.com/2009/11/02/ginger-baker-on-fela-kuti-1999/