Is this anti-semitism?

there's a growing strand of thought on the left here in france that france should turn its attention more to the maghreb and west africa, and less to the_west, since linguistically the french have an edge in africa that other european nations don't have. this would concomitantly involve stronger attempts at integrating french people of ancestry from those places into french civil life. I've been ~thinking about that~ while watching the gaza protests in the last month (saw a little one here in marseille, & heard one a bigger one from a distance across the jardin de luxembourg in paris). thinking : how would this turn, if successful (obv lol @ that, it's the left in france), affect anti-semitism here? I've been walking with a friend in a luxe quarter in paris, on the rue de seine, with an orthodox american friend who was dressed like it; and he got verbally abused by a guy on the street; at least in paris, anti-semitism is an overt thing. (dunno about marseille yet, though we live close enough to the center that I'll find out soon enough I'm sure.)

I think France especially has a mistrust of anyone who holds themselves out as anything other than 100% secular and culturally French, hence there also being the headscarf ban. A family member who lived there for a while said that even as a purely secular Jew she had arguments with educated people about why she maintained any Jewish identity at all, something that Americans just don't seem to do, if only out of our weird aversion to discussing religion or politics publicly. So there's that *and* there's anti-Jewish sentiment in the muslim community. Being a minority group never ceases to be problematic, even when prosperity brings periods of safety, and the liberal philosophical position against "all" discrimination never seems to prevent people from considering some forms of discrimination as more worthy than others. It seems like Frederik's point is that right now Europe is still treating anti-Semitism as more worthy than anti-Islamism, which is probably true. euler is pointing out that a country can pretty easily flip the two if it becomes politically expedient.

xpost I in no way intended to justify islamophobia, just saying that I see where it sometimes comes from. That is, xenophobia (which I've always thought of as interchangeable with anti-immigrant). And part of my observation was based in misconceptions I have from an American vantage. That is, I was thinking of "Europe" as a whole, and didn't really consider (though I suppose should have) movement from Germany or Poland to Denmark, or Denmark to Sweden, as immigration, writ large. I admit I never thought of movement within Europe as "immigration," in the more dramatic, say, Africa to Europe, or Mexico to America sense, though of course it is.

Anti-semitism, though, frequently comes from, imo, a deeper place, whether explicitly couched in ancient church doctrine (Jews killed Jesus), or the spread of propaganda (Protocols, etc.). Many, too many, people just don't like Muslims, or blame some Muslims for what other Muslims do elsewhere, or aren't comfortable around Muslims. But Jew hatred seems different to me, going beyond prejudice. Dunno.

xposting I don't know who Geert Wilders is, but I assume he's bad and he was invoked as a criticism. To clarify again, I mean proliferation in the sense that I read stories of so-called "radical mosques," or "radical Imams" coming out of England, France, Denmark, wherever. It's once again my ignorant American location working against me. "Radical" mosques would not even stand a chance in a country as Islamophobic as ours. "Moderate" mosques have a hard enough time. So when I read about the former's existence at all throughout Europe, yeah, the word proliferation came to mind. Just that they're there at all, and relatively new, though of course not in high numbers. So my mistake.

Was just reading a book about the Beatles, btw, and there are a couple of paragraphs about the band's passive anti-Semitism, or at least insensitivity, early on, c. 1962, especially around Brian Epstein. Lots of stuff about money, or him not supposed to work on Saturday, or bacon jokes, mostly the band's ignorance and immaturity at work. But still.

I don't know who Geert Wilders is

There is this thing called Google.

Lennon made some pretty savage anti-semitic digs at Epstein while he was alive that seemed more the work of Lennon's misanthropy and general vileness than ignorance or immaturity. Didn't he tell Epstein that he should title his autobiography 'Queer Jew'?

I never really bought the "Jew hatred is different and inexplicable" argument -- I see it as a combination of religious enmity, mistrust of a "mysterious" minority group, fear, resentment, all the stuff that usually goes into a prejudice. Obviously it has its unique blend of these elements based on particularities of the situation. It's not exactly identical to American racism against blacks, or islamophobia, but it doesn't strike me as a singular phenomenon any more than any other hatred is.

Who are these people? Why are they different from us? Why don't they want to be like us? What are they doing and saying behind closed doors, when we're not around? Why are they successful? What are their secrets? Why don't they accept the truth of our religion? Maybe they secretly want to destroy us. Etc.

I think hatred in and of itself is the basis of all this. I just can't think of many other groups who have been the targets of such specific and prolific propaganda for centuries.

Like, throughout Europe, Russia, America, China, Africa, anti-Semitism looks largely the same, based on the same lies and prejudices. Lots of horrible hatred is regional, or between two groups. Anti-Semitism always seems bigger than that.

Josh I don't think that's actually true. You might superficially find some of the same stereotypes in China, for example, but you wouldn't find the same hostile feeling toward Jewish people as in, say, Tunisia.

Well, the hostility varies, for sure. But the propaganda persists, even in places with virtually no Jews! Or maybe especially in places with no Jews. And it really is global, isn't it? Is there any other minority group consistently maligned this way around the globe?

uh black people

oppression olympics not really necessary is it

skeptical that guy who does know who geert wilders is might not be expert in global racism he thinks he is

Well it's hard to think of such a small minority group that is at the same time so visible and has a presence in so many countries. Like what would even be a comparison point, Bahai? There are persecuted Christian minorities in many places in the world but Christians on the whole are a pretty damn large group worldwide. Muslim minorities are persecuted in many places as well, and there's certainly plenty of anti-Muslim propaganda.

I've never heard of this Chinese anti-semitism personally btw. ime most Asian countries' populations don't even know what Jews are.

xxp

I don't consider myself an expert in anything. I do consider this board more of a discussion, and not a debate. I learn things here all of the time. One of the first things I learned, many years ago, is that some people are just jerks. Including me, sometimes. But not always.

The only thing I've ever read about in China is the flip of that "Asians are good at math" kind of racism, i.e. "Jews are good with money, how can we learn to emulate them." I find it mostly harmless.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2014/05/14/is-china-anti-semitic-one-jews-reflections/

It seems, yeah, largely based in ignorance, and not overt hatred. But there's still a number that believes the worst of the worst, like "18% thought they were “responsible for most of the world’s wars.”"

This one, from 2009, points out the curious, complicated lack of a religious basis in Asia for Jewish conspiracies:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/06/judaism-race

(I didn't google their authors, so apologies if they were penned by more right wing politicians I don't know.)

So my mistake.

No problem. The pinning of European anti-Semitism on its Muslim populations just makes me very queasy. I don't know how aware Americans of the line peddled by guys like Wilders and, before him, Pim Fortuyn and now very common amongst Islamophobes about Muslims representing a threat to liberal values - you know, all those hard won freedoms that the precursors to Wilders fought tooth and nail against.

The problem with this "survey of anti-Semitic attitudes" business is that it's without context. If you ask Chinese people a list of targeted questions about attitudes toward Jews, you might get some negative answers, but if you're talking about what preoccupies people, it's going to be low on the list. I think a lot of people with "anti-Jewish" attitudes would probably fall into the category of this commenter:

Teacup

09 February 2009 10:15am

29

Is this from first hand experience? I can't speak for other countries, but Indians spend little time worrying about Jews per se and certainly don't go around spouting anti-Jewish stuff. Anti-Muslim, yes, anti-Jewish, no.. A great many are annoyed with the actions of the state of Israel, but that is like assuming that people were annoyed with the Bush administration because it was Christian.

However, the presence of the self-styled "Jewish state" and its actions, don't make good advertising.

Lets not confuse religion and politics.

Also the kind of questions that are asked often lead the responder to an "attitude."

"Do Jews have too much power?"
"Well, there do seem to be a lot of Jews in power now that you mention it, sure I guess so, why should one group have so much power?"

commenter otm

(a post I never thought I would make about anything lol)

Oh, there are all sorts of ways one can get those results. But the 2009 thing I linked to gets into more detail, and more interesting detail, imo.

Pim Fortuyn

This dude I've heard of.

I don't think I pinned European anti-Semitism on its Muslim population, just saying that it preceded it, as well as Israel, so obviously stems from other stuff as well as the most obvious stuff. Which includes some Muslim anti-Semitism, but I don't think anyone can quantify exactly how much and where it comes from, at least not as easily as one can source Islamophobia, given the number of people in powerful, public positions who are pretty blatant about it.

i own some ellen willis collections but i've never read this piece before - i think it's very good:
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/181449/willis-anti-anti-zionist

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/aug/17/sainsburys-removes-kosher-food-anti-israel-protesters

That's my local Sainsburys. The Kosher food was there when I went in 30 minutes ago.

bc they put it back or what?

It said in the article they were putting it back. I think somebody screwed up and they knew they screwed up so they fixed it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/21/opinion/deborah-e-lipstadt-on-the-rising-anti-semitism-in-europe.html

http://forward.com/articles/204493/jewish-student-at-temple-university-punched-at-pro/
http://forward.com/articles/204487/australian-jewish-school-evacuated-by-bomb-scare/

fuck this shit already

If they don't want to be targeted for being Jewish, maybe they should just stop being Jewish.

temple U! this is my fucking backyard.

I have Jewish family in Philly AND Australia.

that Philly thing doesn't read like a straight-up hate crime to me, a pro-palestinian group confronted by a dude from a right-wing pro-israeli group and the fists/insults flew...? not exactly shocking.

idk how reliable this is. the kid who got punched is a friend of a friend:
http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/temple-univ-jewish-student-punched-face-and-called-kike-anti-semitic-attack

def an objective account there lol

tbc nobody should be resorting to fists/insults. kids are stupid.

He is a member of the Jewish fraternity Alpha Epsilon Pi and a fellow with CAMERA, a right-wing pro-Israel media watchdog.

those guys are the fucking worst, i'm willing to bet that guy provoked his assailant.

of course, it takes two etc.

if he really wanted to provoke a response he should have just kidnapped one of them and set them on fire amirite

hey a link to ben shapiro's website, that's great

ugh Breitbart

http://www.jta.org/2014/08/22/news-opinion/world/vandals-target-jewish-school-in-denmark

Given that the guy was a "CAMERA on Campus fellow" I have to wonder if he was provoking them at least a bit on purpose.

Here's the *thing-I-just-can't-process-of-the-day*

http://972mag.com/nstt_feeditem/israelis-on-facebook-wish-death-for-holocaust-survivors-against-protective-edge/

Is this some kind of Sephardic-ashkenazic thing? Like do Jews from Arab countries more loudly profess their hate for Arabs and do they also have some kind of weird complex about not being of the group who went through the holocaust?

ime, as a stereotype, sephardic jews hate arabs more than ashkenazi jews do