New Burial album. More info?

the notion that 2-step was "all about" R&B remixes and dubstep and grime were what transformed and retrospectively redeemed the genre.

I don't think it needs redemption. I loved the ruff and rugged shit, the sexy vocals and stuttery beats first time round. I also really loved oxide of neutrino fames production. He is totally unheralded in the general scheme of things but his productions were more dark and revolutionary than anything ghost or tempa put out

see thats the thing Tim.Being in NZ and hearing it while being removed from the epicentre gave me a unique perspective. I didn't/don't know what is/was 2 step and what was garage so I drew my own line. Cheese = 2step, rudeboy = garage

heres 2 for the boring revisionists. I rate it and even more so propped sticky and ms dynamites boo harder...

cleptomaniacs_-_all_i_do_bump__flex_dancehall_dub .mp3 - 8.05MB

sticky_feat_lady_dynamite_-_boo.mp3 - 5.01MB

...and yeah, this thread in relation to burial is the classic "If i wasnt talking shit about you i wouldn't be talking about you at all"

be thankful, s'all G :)

"Being in NZ and hearing it while being removed from the epicentre gave me a unique perspective. I didn't/don't know what is/was 2 step and what was garage so I drew my own line. Cheese = 2step, rudeboy = garage"

clearly no relation to reality where the music was coming from, but obviously it has meaning to you. your constantly pro-breakz ranting stems from the fact that you always detach the sounds from their context, which is fine, but leads to all your historical and descriptive arguments being utter bullshit.

still thinking linear huh ???

this is my new all-purpose comeback to anything

I think Burial's 1st lp reminded me most of Goldie's Timeless, like it was a distillation of jungle up to that point (thank you Rob Playford!). Burial's 1st lp sort of synthesized stuff going on in different movements, from 2-step/UKG, minimal dub of BC/Rhythm & Sound, and the backwash of Mille Plateaux & Touch. This second lp seems to be a continuation of the theme, which is fine by me. I wasnt anticipating something mindblowing. What intrigues me is how he eschews the general sound of dubstep in favor of 2-step structure. Emotionally, it gives me that eerie feeling of hearing a rave from 1/2 mile off as the sound echoes & distorts over some illegal landscape. I hope he keeps it up.

clearly no relation to reality where the music was coming from, but obviously it has meaning to you. your constantly pro-breakz ranting stems from the fact that you always detach the sounds from their context, which is fine, but leads to all your historical and descriptive arguments being utter bullshit.

oh look the troll is a closet psycho analyst who only speaks to slag me off...what a funny troll you are

...what my historical and descriptive arguments do is personalise the context to my own experiences and of those who surrounded me that were into the same sounds. That makes it fact to me and merely an opinion to everyone else.

shouldn't you in the interests of concise historical relevence and the irrevocable truth then attach footnotes and a bibliography to every post and implement your policy across the board...

...like would you have be believe also that the music only came out of london ???

I don't need to accept a reality for where the music comes from but could you, being that you are so wise and all that, then differentiate 2step form garage if i gave you a list of songs and artists and tell me what their reality was in relation to their geographical location ???

...hahaha what a fucking retard you are

pollywog, you're attempts to different 2-step and garage are part of the whole problem.

"garage" as a term refers to soulful, vocal-based US house, often with quite skippy snare patterns. "Speed garage" was called "speed garage" because it sounded like US garage sped up. "2-step garage" got its name because it sounded like "speed garage" with 2-step beats rather than 4X4 beats. The term "UK Garage" basically covers both. It's precisely when So Solid Crew et. al. emerged that the continued use of the term "garage" began to seem odd. For a while some people referred to "garage rap", but it was this (plus the final abandonment of any remaining rhythmic connection to US garage via skippy snare patterns) that led to the rise of the term "grime".

So to say 2-step equals R&B and garage equals MCs is wrong on multiple levels. If anything, the "garage" in UK garage refers to the genre's (progressively more and more distant) connection to house music. If you listen to a lot of the diva vocals on tracks from 1997-2000, they draw as much from house as they do from R&B - e.g. the "ooh! Ah-ah-ah-ah-aahhah" in "Neighbourhood" is a fairly typical house vamp.

should be "your attempts" obv.

and "differentiate" not "different"! I am illiterate today.

yeah sorry, being lazy...

...in all my references to garage i am talking about UKG not the soulful based stateside house music

Do you know who coined the term 'grime' for UKgarage rap and when it became widespread to call it that ???

I know the misnomered rephlex compilations caught some flak over the name...

"yeah sorry, being lazy...

...in all my references to garage i am talking about UKG not the soulful based stateside house music

Do you know who coined the term 'grime' for UKgarage rap and when it became widespread to call it that ???

I know the misnomered rephlex compilations caught some flak over the name...

-- pollywog"

that im really not sure of. i remember all the weird other names (8-bar, sublow, eskibeat, etc) but i cant for the life of me pinpoint when i first heard "grime". i think it had to have been after i quit buying garage related music for a while, so maybe late '02?

I first started hearing the term "grime" when listening to Femme Fatale's 1xtra show in, oh, October 2002. But it probably predates that.

"...in all my references to garage i am talking about UKG not the soulful based stateside house music"

I know, the but the "garage" UK Garage itself refers to the soulful stateside house music. That's where this music came from! Which is why saying the "garage" in UKG refers to So Solid Crew rather than the preceding 2-step is so off-base.

2001 - N.O.R.E - "grimey" (from "god's son")

2001 - ward 21 - "grimey" (from "mentally disturbed")

2002 - dillinja - grimey EP

2002 - troublesome - "grimey" <- actual UKG track

2003 - so solid - "so grimey"

i've heard variously that musical mob coined the term (or maybe someone confused "inventing" with "naming" w/r/t "pulse x"), that wiley came up with it or that d double e came up with it. all three claims sound dubious at best.

"2001 - N.O.R.E - "grimey" (from "god's son")

2001 - ward 21 - "grimey" (from "mentally disturbed")

2002 - dillinja - grimey EP

2002 - troublesome - "grimey" <- actual UKG track

2003 - so solid - "so grimey"

-- moonship journey to baja"

i feel like someone from wu-tang used the phrase "grimey" well before those, but i couldnt tell you where. so yeah, around late 02 seems right to me based on when i quit caring. i liked the name 8-bar personally, especially since so many of the beats were repetitive loops. i used to mix "a pulse x" with basic channel! id get my dick sucked now by some hipsters if i did that shit today.

Which is why saying the "garage" in UKG refers to So Solid Crew rather than the preceding 2-step is so off-base.

...but didn't you say 2step was a dominant form of UKG, yet if 2step preceded "garage" then surely UKG would be a subset of 2 step ???

I know where UKgarage came from I can hear the progression to 2step in garage type house stuff like 1995's nightcrawlers-surrender your love and 1993'3 Robin S - show me love

he's saying that 2-step precedes so solid crew

^^^and that UKgarage then came after 2step ???

"^^^and that UKgarage then came after 2step ???

-- pollywog"

no, UK garage is the highest term. it encompasses speed garage, 2-step, and any other garage related music made in the UK. it was never its own genre, more a classification of related genres.

progression of UK garage: speed garage -> 2 step -> garage rap

on any "ayia napia" or "ministry of sound presents garage" comp or even comps labeled "2 step" or "speed garage" you'd have some combination of all three styles. i call it a "progression" because that's the chronological order in which they showed up

pollywog we've all explained this about ten times you. It's really not that difficult.

UK Garage refers to all these styles.

2-step didn't actually "precede" So Solid Crew in the sense you're interpreting it, since So Solid Crew actually made 2-step, and hence exist within the scope of this subset.

However, there were obciously 2-step tracks around before So Solid Crew with a stronger link to US garage, and since UK garage refers to all these styles (but has its roots in US garage) it's ridiculous to say that So Solid Crew are "garage" whereas the 2-step tracks that came out before So Solid Crew are not.

Tim F wins the internet !!!

...cos i cant follow the argument anymore, especially when you're all saying different things. Its like one big circle jerk...

...can you recommend me some speed garage or a mix i might be able to download as i went from d'n'b to breaks to UKG without ever getting into speed garage

or we could talk about burial some more...

If you can find it, I strongly recommend you track down Dreem Teem's "In Session vol 2" mix from the end of 1997 - a mix of speed garage and early 2-step garage, and you can really hear the latter emerging out of the former.

Some crucial speed garage (a woefully short and incomplete list):

New Horizons - Find The Path (Sweet DJ Release)
Gant - Sound Bwoy Burial
Double 99 - Rip Groove
Scott Garcia ft. MC Styles - It's A London Thing
Boris Dlugosch Presents Boom - Hold Your Head Up High (Julian Jonah Bad Boy Mix)
New Horizons - It's My House (Bashment Mix)
187 Lockdown - Gunman
Fabulous Baker Boys - Oh Boy

...i'll see what i can find

Thanx for the education cuz...

"Determined" (if anyone has an MP3 of this please hit me up)

happy to oblige (even if it's only 128kbit).

btw Tim, the part upthread about Wideboys reverting to funky house in the wilderness years is not quite true: yes, they did some funky house-ish stuff then, but at ukg tempo and aimed strictly at the ukg market. they also did a fair amount of 2step during the period when it was terminally unfashionable, and they started dabbling with bassline as early as 2005. this year's "Snowflake" is a good example of their wide array of ukg allegiances as it comes with a 2steppy mix, a London-style 4x4 mix and two bassline mixes - one for the organ house axis, one of the ruffer T2/DJ Q-type variety (the absolutely killer "Uf Norf Dutty Bass Mix").

but generally, you're spot on about their mercantile impulse - they even have an electrohouse alias nowadays (Atari Era)!

Mind Taker you are a champion. I lost this about five years ago and have been looking ever since! What a great and unusual track, so bizarre to think that it came out in 1998 or something like that. The closest other thing I can think of is David Howard's "U & I" - it's got that same "beats that sound like a shower of tiny ball-bearings" vibe. Love the vocal science too: "I'm Determined! Yes we're up! Hey! Hey! Hey! Yes we're up! Up!" Stuff like this and "Everybody Come On" and the "Jump & Shout" and "Demons" and "Please Don't Turn Me On" remixes paint such a different picture to their subsequent career.

Yeah I am skewing the Wideboys story a bit - although when I heard the 4/4 version of Sambuca it really did sound hard to distinguish from funky house! I haven't heard "Snowflake" in any of its versions, will definitely have to track that down.

Caught up in the spirit of generosity:

New Horizons - It's My House (the bashment mix).mp3

Too kind, both of you.

well, there are several 4x4 versions of "Sambuca": don't know which one you're referring to, but i prefer the one under their Del Monte guise.

xp cheers!

Dem 2 - Destiny (New Horizons Remix).mp3

gawd i love this stuff

in the recent spirit of this thread, if anyone has the dubaholics' dub mix of "desire" by ultra naté i'd... ooh man i don't know what i'd do

Oh I don't have that one, but the Dubaholics Dub Mix of Matt Darey's "Beautiful" is one of my favourite 2-step tracks.

many thanks for the mp3s, this side of garage is one i have very little of so its greatly appreciated :) that bashment mix of Its My House is incredible!

going back to the mention of early 4x4 / speed garage upthread, a few mixes which i really enjoyed and which helped to introduce me to the genre...

United Vibes - FourFour Special - this one is a bit more in the vein of US roots i think, but i love it so much!

http://archive.subfm.com/UnitedVibesFourFourSpecial05Feb07SubFM.mp3

Ramsey & Fen & MJ Cole - "Underground Explosion"
Greg Stainer & MJ Cole - "Closer"
Todd Edwards - “Steal U’re Heart”
Sunship - “Sun Funk”
Jason H & MJ Cole - "Control"
24Hr Experience – “Jazz From the Heart”
Todd Edwards - "Winter Behaviour"
DJ $ki – “I Need You 98”
DJ Speedy – “The Harder They Come”
Tuff Jam - "Tumblin Down"
Matt Jam Lamont- "Feel My Love"
Dj $ki- “Do it : To – Nite”
Daniel Ward & Hermit – “Step to it”
Ant Hill Mob - "Player”
Groove Chronciles - “Nobody But You”
Smokin Beats - "Look Who's Lovin Me"
Jason Kaye & Steve Gurley - "Set It Out"
Rocksteady – “Watcha Gonna Do”
Todd Edwards - "The Dream"
R.I.P. – “Burning Up”
R.I.P - "Obsessed"
Jeremy Sylvester - "Stay"
KMA - "Cape Fear"
Tuff Jam - "Experience" (New Horizons Rmx)
? ? - ? ? (Duty Free)
Jeremy Sylvester - "Crazy Dub"
High Times - "Feel It"
Ordinary People – “Baby You Make My Heart Sing”
New Horizons - "Find The Path" (Tuff Jam mix)
Tuff Jam - “Out of my Head 97”
R.I.P – “Players”
Groove Chronicles – “Voices”
Louie Vega & Kenny Gonzalez – “No Cure”
Anthill Mob - "X2C"
NCA – Goodbye (Laurence Bagnall mix)
Ordinary People - “Keep your Love”
Big Bird – “Flav”
Anthill Mob - “Enchanted Rhythm”
? ? - ? ? (G.O.D. 4)
Dem 2 - "Beautiful People"
Groove Chronciles - "Hold On"
Smokin Beats - "Jazz House"
Ordinary People - "I Need"

Oris Jay on the Basement - this one is a bit ruffer

http://www.sendspace.com/file/8l7hsp

Scott Garcia- Music Takes You (Buzz Bomb)
Unknown- Unknown
Big Bird- Flav (City Dub Traxx/ Nice ‘n’ Ripe)
Livin Large ft Colonel Abrams- Love is what we need (unknown mix)
New Horizons- Find the Path (In your Mind) (Tuff Jam remix) (500 Rekords)
Underground Distortion- Everythin’ is Large (Boom City/Satellite)
4 Deep Connextion- Twisted Future (DFL)
New Horizons- Inspiration (500 rekords)
Colonel Abram- So Confused (The Bootleg) (Great Jones)
New Horizons- It’s My House (bassline mix) (500 Rekords)
Somore ft Damon Trueitt- I Refuse (What You Want)
(Industry Standard Mix) (Locked On)
Tuff Jam- Track No Name (Unda-Vybe)
Mike Dunn presents the MD Express- God Made Me Phunky
Nu-Birth- Anytime (Locked On)

Woah, thanks Benjamin. I'm not sure how to get the first link to work, but I'm downloading that Oris Jay mix now.

In the meantime:

Nu-Birth - Anytime (Dem 2 Nice n Sleazy Mix).mp3

cheers for the mixes benjamin but not having much luck with the first one either :(

my days, that Dem 2 mix!

oh, it seems that the UV mix has gone down on the Sub FM archive. sorry for the tease! i'll see what can be done, i have it somewhere

in the meantime, one from this guy Average Joe on Uptown Forum, who has been knocking out incredible mixes like no-one's business http://www.sendspace.com/file/tpm3kt - this one focusing on 'the Sun City sound'

m-dubs - over here (original mix)
tuff jam ft tempo o neill - keep holdin on (up mix)
new horizons - find the path (in your mind)(tuff jams d.i.y dub)
new horizons - its my house (bassline mix)
smokin beats - dreams (original with vocal)
operator & baffled - things are never (tuff jam dub)
logic - blues for you (hard dub)
harddrive - deep inside (original)
g.o.d - what you want
kim mazelle - big baby (ramsey & fen mix)
pepper mashay - into you (grants dope dub)
banana republic ft judy obeya - catch the feeling (tuff n jams catch the dub)
24 hours experience - touch the afterworld
a baffled republic - badboys (move in silence)
booom! - hold your head up high (high up club mix)
booom! - hold your head up high (julians badboy mix)
soul II soul - pleasure dome (booker t dub)
new horizons - sweet dj release
g.o.d - untitled (limited 1)
kerri chandler - hallelujah
plutonic - addicted (dj disciple dub)

Groove Connektion 2 - Club Lonely (Dem 2 Don't Cry Dub).mp3

this thread went from unbearable to awesome

EXACTLY

moar pipeccok

Listening to that Oris Jay mix now. ha ha how good is 4 Deep Connextion's "Twisted Future", with that weird, incoherent diva wail. In an odd sense speed garage can be even more disorienting than 2-step because you get these seemingly standard house tracks filled with the most bizarre stuff.

Here's another New Horizons remix, slightly less gonzo than the previous ones I posted but I love what they do with the vocals here (in fact this seemed to be quite a trend for New Horizons remixes: recording entirely new vocals, usually of the opposing gender, and then cutting them up or tweaking them so that they sound remixed. It's like they've cut open the original vocals and let out some hidden counter-vocals hidden in their depths).

Danny J Lewis - Spend The Night (New Horizons Mix).mp3

good stuff...

...but if possible could you state as to whether those tunes are speed garage, 4x4 or 2step and the year of production so i can put it into some sort of historical reference

see i tend to genre hop form one to the other and leave the previous one behind as a new one pops up...

...having my interest piqued by UKG again i would like to know what if any artists are still making it, excepting the much talked about burial of course

thanx

All the New Horizons tracks remixes are speed garage from about 1997-1999 (speed garage used 4X4 beats so I'm not sure what that part of your distinction refers to).

The Dem 2 remixes are from the same time period, but are 2-step.

Here's another 2-step track from late 1997, and one of my favourite pieces of music ever:

Amira - My Desire (Dreem Team Remix).mp3

do you rate this mix, tim? it's one of my favorites for sure.

I've never been able to find it! Based on the tracklisting it looks great, yeah.

ok now i know what to put in the post! i can't believe it's only got two votes at discogs and that it rates a 3/5. that's WTF material right there.

how about this DJ EZ release?

http://www.discogs.com/release/111348

dodgy cover and all! it's been hanging around in my local shop for a while now - and it's only a fiver.

"how about this DJ EZ release?

http://www.discogs.com/release/111348

dodgy cover and all! it's been hanging around in my local shop for a while now - and it's only a fiver.

-- sam500"

can't vouch for that one, but EZ was kinda the man for a while. it was a live mix of his that really got me started in 2-step, he dropped classic after classic. his intro on that mix was silly, it got rewound 3 times, and it deserved it. every single time a new element would come in, the crowd went ballistic.

"but EZ was kinda the man for a while"

yeah, i remember hearing one of his guest mixes on Kiss FM years ago and it was right on the money. wish i'd taped it now.

That EZ mix is worth picking up if only for Artful Dodger's astonishing and hard to find remix of Valerie M's "Tingles", perhaps the most unabashedly beautiful 2-step ever got.

no idea how this enters into whatever tf was being discussed but the shanks and bigfoot aiya napa mix tim's recommended before i come back to constantly