Israel to World: "Suck It."

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it's a rather unpretty argument, and a bit of another "suck it": the subtext is that Jews have historically been so threatened that they now have no qualms about steamrolling anyone who stands in their way. Certainly that's not an admirable thing?

Jews = 0.3% of earth's population. Nobody is getting steamrolled. You are talking Israel and Palestine, not "anyone." I just wanted to clarify that.

Also -- and I tried to make this point when we did the "State of Israel: Classic or Dud" thread, I still don't understand how anyone justifies the necessity of a sovereign state of Israel.

Obviously, it is impossible not to mention the factor of the Holocaust in an discussion about Israel's statehood. The thing that bothered me about your argument in that thread is that you seemed to lambast Israel for being a Jewish state, when clearly there are many Arab nations that are Muslim enforced states. Obviously one doesn't justify the other. But it seems to me that if one is wrong, both are.

Out of curiousity, bnw, how do you feel about the violent seizure of white-owner farms in Zimbabwe?

Honestly, I know next to nothing about it except that it sounded terrifying. A case of the "haves and the have-nots"? I can't even begin to get my head around the tribal violence in Africa.

bnw, Monday, 17 December 2001 01:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

Obviously, it is impossible not to mention the factor of the Holocaust in an discussion about Israel's statehood. The thing that bothered me about your argument in that thread is that you seemed to lambast Israel for being a Jewish state, when clearly there are many Arab nations that are Muslim enforced states.

HUGE difference: my complaint about Israel was that it was created specifically as a homeland for people of a certain ethnic heritage, as dictated by the completely deplorable, imperialist, anti-pluralistic line of thinking that various sorts of people should separate themselves into self-determining "homelands" (even if this means massive dislocation and reduction of self- determination for someone else). This is somewhat different from the people of an existing land adopting Islamic law, which is woefully theocratic but in the end not so different a concept from our own religiously-inflected laws in the US. In those cases Muslims already constitute the dominant portion of a region, whether we like it or not. But to create a nation specifically so that one group can be dominant within it? The subtext is that people have some sort of right to be able to go to a country in which they are a part of the ethnic majority (and that said country should be situated wherever they ethnically "come from," regardless of whether someone else has arrived there in the meantime). We have to reject that logic. To not reject that logic is to doom the very idea of pluralistic societies, and to call for exactly the sort of violence we see in the area right now.

You might recall, in that thread, that I ragged on Liberia for the same reason as Israel. I rejected the idea that Jews deserved as self- determining Israeli homeland for the same reasons I rejected the idea that Germans deserved a self-determining Aryan Fatherland, just like I'd have rejected any suggestion that all of the black people in the 1870's US should have been shipped over to Liberia or given Alabama and Mississippi as their own sovereign nation.

And I think I pointed out, in that thread, that some of this may have to do with personal experience. I do not understand nationalism, because I don't have any nation to be nationalistic about: I'm a "foreigner" no matter where I go. And yet I completely reject the idea that I "deserve" or have a right to anything else; we should all be foreigners.

And while I'm not going to claim that this is what was going through Arafat's head, all of this is why I understand rejecting Palestinian statehood if it's not accompanied by a "right of return" for all of those who were expelled from Israel.

"Out of curiousity, bnw, how do you feel about the violent seizure of white-owner farms in Zimbabwe?"

Honestly, I know next to nothing about it except that it sounded terrifying. A case of the "haves and the have-nots"? I can't even begin to get my head around the tribal violence in Africa.

Not tribal violence -- I asked because it bears on our discussion, insofar as you would sort of have to support land redistribution in Zimbabwe in order to support the existence of Israel. The rationale behind land redistribution is that, well, the land is African land and belongs to Africans, and white ownership of it is the result of violent colonial seizure; thus it's time to give it back. I am rather sympathetic to this logic. I am not as sympathetic to the rather less clear-cut logic of the creation of Israel, where the link goes back a long time, and the creation of a diaspora and the shifting population of the region were due to more natural historical processes, and not a recent, easy-to-identify colonization -- plus the very existence of a diaspora, of millions who had left the region, for centuries upon centuries, and then try to make claims upon it?

At root I am sympathetic to the idea that people need land to live on (see Zimbabwe), but hugely unsympathetic to the idea that people need a land. It's reductive, archaic, racist, stone-age thinking, and I simply can't support it.

Nitsuh, Monday, 17 December 2001 01:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

"Out of curiousity, bnw, how do you feel about the violent seizure of white-owner farms in Zimbabwe?"

The current situation is hardly cut and dried. My ambivalence is increased by the fact that impoverished black employees get detained, tortured and beaten senseless for working on these farms. Often they have no recourse but to work in such places in order to escape poverty.

The general populace are more concerned with survival than politics. In my experience, the overriding concern is with the increasingly totalitarian regime under President Mugabe.

Inspired somewhat by President Bush, his most recent tactic is to label any opposition party member a "terrorist" and have them dealt with accordingly.

The situation in Zimbabwe is spiralling rapidly out of control, and the forcible repatriation of white-owned farms is only one such example.

Trevor, Monday, 17 December 2001 01:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

Oh, certainly: I didn't mean to imply that it was a simple situation by any stretch. Just comparing the root moral justifications, even if they're not the same as the actual motivations for action.

Nitsuh, Monday, 17 December 2001 01:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

my complaint about Israel was that it was created specifically as a homeland for people of a certain ethnic heritage, as dictated by the completely deplorable, imperialist, anti-pluralistic line of thinking that various sorts of people should separate themselves into self-determining "homelands" (even if this means massive dislocation and reduction of self- determination for someone else).

The base of your argument I agree with but the world has simply never been a pluralistic place. As with the case of Israel, the question becomes does the threat against the Jewish population justify the creation of Israel? I'd say yes; you'd say no, no degree of threat ever does. The interesting thing to me is wondering what amount of Western anti-Semitism played into creating a state of Israel? How much of it was "we don't want these refugee Jews in our country so let's give them Israel."

bnw, Monday, 17 December 2001 01:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

7 months pass...
Ask Imaam Imam Sunnah Sunni Deobandi Islaam Islam Kashmir Afghanistan Jihad Jihaad Chechnya Kosovo Awliya Sufiyah Sufi Soofi Sibghatullah Shah Pir Pagaro Sindh Punjab Balauchistan Balochistan Afghanistan Terror Terrorism War Militant Radical Extremist fanatic fundamentalist Sunni movement Special forces soldiers wahabi wahhaabi wahhabi Syedayn Shaheedayn Ambala Deoband Saharanpur Kandhla Thana bhawan Akora Khattak Balakot Hyderabad Karachi lyari MQM Hikayat Hikayaat peace spirit spiritual Waliullah wali saint worship veneration Sajda Ghairullah Ghayr Ghair Kufr Ilhaad Zanadaqah Wahdat ul Wajood Shahood Tassawuf Islaah Tazkiyah Nafs Shaytaan Satan Shaitan Zikr Dhikr Zakir Zaakir Dhaakir Abid Zahid Zuhd Istaghna Sabr "Safhaat min Sabr ul Ulama" Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuda

Afghanistan News Sunnah Sunni Deobandi Islam Islaam Kashmir Afghanistan Jihad Jihaad Chechnya Kosovo Awliya Sufiyah Sufi Soofi Sibghatullah Shah Pir Pagaro Sindh Punjab Balauchistan Balochistan Afghanistan Terror Terrorism War Militant Radical Extremist fanatic fundamentalist Sunni movement Special forces soldiers wahabi wahhaabi wahhabi Syedayn Shaheedayn Ambala Deoband Saharanpur Kandhla Thana bhawan Akora Khattak Balakot Hyderabad Karachi lyari MQM Hikayat Hikayaat peace spirit spiritual Waliullah wali saint worship veneration Sajda Ghairullah Ghayr Ghair Kufr Ilhaad Zanadaqah Wahdat ul Wajood Shahood Tassawuf Islaah Tazkiyah Nafs Shaytaan Satan Shaitan Zikr Dhikr Zakir Zaakir Dhaakir Abid Zahid Zuhd Istaghna Sabr "Safhaat min Sabr ul Ulama" ar-Rasheed trust

Sunnah Deobandi Sunni Islam Islaam Kashmir Afghanistan Jihad Jihaad Chechnya Kosovo Awliya Sufiyah Sufi Soofi Sibghatullah Shah Pir Pagaro Sindh Punjab Balauchistan Balochistan Afghanistan Terror Terrorism War Militant Radical Extremist fanatic fundamentalist Sunni movement Special forces soldiers wahabi wahhaabi wahhabi Syedayn Shaheedayn Ambala Deoband Saharanpur Kandhla Thana bhawan Akora Khattak Balakot Hyderabad Karachi lyari MQM Hikayat Hikayaat peace spirit spiritual Waliullah wali saint worship veneration Sajda Ghairullah Ghayr Ghair Kufr Ilhaad Zanadaqah Wahdat ul Wajood Shahood Tassawuf Islaah Tazkiyah Nafs Shaytaan Satan Shaitan Zikr Dhikr Zakir Zaakir Dhaakir Abid Zahid Zuhd Istaghna Sabr "Safhaat min Sabr ul Ulama"

copy, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

7 years pass...

Up to 16 killed as Israeli forces storm aid convoy

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/05/31/2914131.htm?section=world

ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 07:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

Stay classy Israel.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:16 (4 years ago) Permalink

Ask Imaam Imam Sunnah Sunni Deobandi Islaam Islam Kashmir Afghanistan Jihad Jihaad Chechnya Kosovo Awliya Sufiyah Sufi Soofi Sibghatullah Shah Pir Pagaro Sindh Punjab Balauchistan Balochistan Afghanistan Terror Terrorism War Militant Radical Extremist fanatic fundamentalist Sunni movement Special forces soldiers wahabi wahhaabi wahhabi Syedayn Shaheedayn Ambala Deoband Saharanpur Kandhla Thana bhawan Akora Khattak Balakot Hyderabad Karachi lyari MQM Hikayat Hikayaat peace spirit spiritual Waliullah wali saint worship veneration Sajda Ghairullah Ghayr Ghair Kufr Ilhaad Zanadaqah Wahdat ul Wajood Shahood Tassawuf Islaah Tazkiyah Nafs Shaytaan Satan Shaitan Zikr Dhikr Zakir Zaakir Dhaakir Abid Zahid Zuhd Istaghna Sabr "Safhaat min Sabr ul Ulama" Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuda

Afghanistan News Sunnah Sunni Deobandi Islam Islaam Kashmir Afghanistan Jihad Jihaad Chechnya Kosovo Awliya Sufiyah Sufi Soofi Sibghatullah Shah Pir Pagaro Sindh Punjab Balauchistan Balochistan Afghanistan Terror Terrorism War Militant Radical Extremist fanatic fundamentalist Sunni movement Special forces soldiers wahabi wahhaabi wahhabi Syedayn Shaheedayn Ambala Deoband Saharanpur Kandhla Thana bhawan Akora Khattak Balakot Hyderabad Karachi lyari MQM Hikayat Hikayaat peace spirit spiritual Waliullah wali saint worship veneration Sajda Ghairullah Ghayr Ghair Kufr Ilhaad Zanadaqah Wahdat ul Wajood Shahood Tassawuf Islaah Tazkiyah Nafs Shaytaan Satan Shaitan Zikr Dhikr Zakir Zaakir Dhaakir Abid Zahid Zuhd Istaghna Sabr "Safhaat min Sabr ul Ulama" ar-Rasheed trust

Sunnah Deobandi Sunni Islam Islaam Kashmir Afghanistan Jihad Jihaad Chechnya Kosovo Awliya Sufiyah Sufi Soofi Sibghatullah Shah Pir Pagaro Sindh Punjab Balauchistan Balochistan Afghanistan Terror Terrorism War Militant Radical Extremist fanatic fundamentalist Sunni movement Special forces soldiers wahabi wahhaabi wahhabi Syedayn Shaheedayn Ambala Deoband Saharanpur Kandhla Thana bhawan Akora Khattak Balakot Hyderabad Karachi lyari MQM Hikayat Hikayaat peace spirit spiritual Waliullah wali saint worship veneration Sajda Ghairullah Ghayr Ghair Kufr Ilhaad Zanadaqah Wahdat ul Wajood Shahood Tassawuf Islaah Tazkiyah Nafs Shaytaan Satan Shaitan Zikr Dhikr Zakir Zaakir Dhaakir Abid Zahid Zuhd Istaghna Sabr "Safhaat min Sabr ul Ulama"

sir mountebank (velko), Monday, 31 May 2010 07:19 (4 years ago) Permalink

great point

ksh, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:20 (4 years ago) Permalink

Not to play Captain Defend an Israel, but acc. to the very sparse on details article, the people were killed when they resisted the commandos. If supposedly there were no weapons on board, what exactly were they resisting with? (For all I know, they just resisted by punching the commandos, or sitting peacefully, but that seems kinda unlikely.)

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:26 (4 years ago) Permalink

Larger story from Haaretz, including:

"The boats are carrying items that Israel bars from reaching Gaza, like cement and other building materials." -- which is really fucked up that they aren't allowed in Gaza.

but also:

The military said in a statement: "Navy fighters took control of six ships that tried to violate the naval blockade (of the Gaza Strip) ... During the takeover, the soldiers encountered serious physical violence by the protesters, who attacked them with live fire."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/at-least-10-activists-killed-in-israel-navy-clashes-onboard-gaza-aid-flotilla-1.293089

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:29 (4 years ago) Permalink

IDF claims they used tools and knives and someone went for a soldier's gun. Protesters claim that they only passively resisted. In any case, 14 protesters were killed in international by the IDF after commandos stormed their flotilla carrying aid to Gaza. Draw your own conclusions.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:33 (4 years ago) Permalink

Just to preempt, I think the whole Gaza situation is totally fucked up, and that there is a lot more Israel + Egypt could and should be doing for the people living there. Either/both governments should stepped forward to work with any humanitarian mission if they are that concerned about weapon/rocket smuggling. That neither did, and just told the mission that they can't deliver the aid, is super cold hearted and basically evil by way of Hannah Arendt thoughtlessness. That said, if you want to deliver aid to Gaza, and you already know it's likely that Israel will step in and stop you (at least an even shot, some shipments are allowed through, some are halted), don't carry weapons. That a) sets you up for a violent conflict and b) justifies what Israel was complaining about in the first place -- that you're bringing weapons into Gaza -- and totally undermines any humanitarian mission you might have. And if you're going to carry weapons (maybe you need them in case of pirates? idk), don't open fire on the freaking army. How could that possibly end well?

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:35 (4 years ago) Permalink

The statement quoted in Haaretz says they were attacked with live fire.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:36 (4 years ago) Permalink

and protestors say they only passively resisted

ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 07:39 (4 years ago) Permalink

NYT:

Channel 10, a private station in Israel, quoted the Israeli Trade Minister, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, as saying between 14 and 16 people had been killed on one of the flotilla ships. He said on Israeli Army Radio that commandos boarded the ship by sliding down on ropes from a hovering helicopter, and were then struck by passengers with “batons and tools.”

I think you are missing the point of the flotilla. It's not simply a matter of delivering much-needed supplies to Gaza. The point is to violate the Israeli blockade. The point is to draw attention to Israel's policies.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:41 (4 years ago) Permalink

I guess it's possible commandos killed innocents only passively resisting, and then the army covered up for a bunch of psychos in their army, but sounds very unlikely to me. Israel has a functioning press. I don't think that's the kind of thing the government could get away with. (But I could be wrong!)

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:42 (4 years ago) Permalink

Considering it's just "he said she said" at this point and will probably stay that way, history is written by the victors, etc.

Fetchboy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:43 (4 years ago) Permalink

I guess it's possible commandos killed innocents only passively resisting, and then the army covered up for a bunch of psychos in their army, but sounds very unlikely to me.

Have you no knowledge of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict?

xpost

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:43 (4 years ago) Permalink

If the purpose was to provoke Israel into murdering civilians, then mission accomplished, I guess. It seems like a lot of strategy is provoking Israel to do something horrific and then hoping something changes because of it. Maybe this'll be the catalyst for complete change in the relationship between Israel and Gaza -- or maybe it'll just be another really tragic, morally repulsive moment in the Middle East that does nothing to change the status quo or make life better for the people living in Gaza.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:46 (4 years ago) Permalink

Super Cub, I know plenty about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Do you know how Israeli Press works? Most press in Israeli is very cynical and holds the government to account often. It seems unlikely to me that you could get away with lying about something like this.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:47 (4 years ago) Permalink

Well, Ha'aretz is basically Israel's answer to The Guardian and is normally the go-to paper for a liberal viewpoint. But what they've done is to Xerox a government press release/statement without digging further, which may in itself be a comment on the behaviour of the military.

I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Monday, 31 May 2010 07:52 (4 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I don't think the immediate report tonight will be the final story. But if soldiers opened fire on passive resisters, I imagine that'll be in Ha'aretz this week.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:53 (4 years ago) Permalink

Well it only happened a few hours ago, miles out at see - not sure what kind of coverage you're expecting yet

Ismael Klata, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

um, sea

Ismael Klata, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:55 (4 years ago) Permalink

If you know a lot about Israel and this conflict, how is it inconceivable to you that the IDF could be covering up a botched operation that resulted in civilian deaths? The last 20 years are riddled with instances of alleged IDF abuses and accusations of cover-ups. It's a mainstay of this conflict.

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

xpost

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:55 (4 years ago) Permalink

And yeah, this happened like 5 hours ago.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:56 (4 years ago) Permalink

idk Super Cub. Like I said, I guess it's possible they are lying about there being live fire resistance. Just super short-sighted to lie about something like that imo. There were a lot of people on the flotilla. It's not the kind of thing you can conspire about one way or another. I don't see all of the activists making up a story and sticking to it, and, as that website you just linked points out, it's hard to get soldiers to lie about their roles in a conflict.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:59 (4 years ago) Permalink

tbh, I really hope there was live fire. If Israel killed those people, even if they were wielding batons or whatever, it's going to end up really fucked up. Especially if Raed Salah was a casualty. There could be another Intifada, and if you can't trust the Israeli army to handle the flotilla situation, you definitely don't want them trying to handle rioters and protesters all over the place. Things could get massively screwed up really quickly.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:05 (4 years ago) Permalink

I don't want to debate you on this, so this is the last post I'll make on the subject.

I think you are woefully ignorant of the dynamics of this conflict. It's entirely possible that the IDF was fired upon, but it's ridiculous to say that the IDF wouldn't use grossly disproportionate force and then try to cover it up (or at least try and justify it). That is pretty much the IDF's standard operating procedure when it come to Gaza. That was the basic strategy in the Gaza War.

xpost

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:09 (4 years ago) Permalink

suzy, one of several pieces in today's Haaretz bitterly criticising the Israeli military: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/gaza-flotilla-drives-israel-into-a-sea-of-stupidity-1.292959

Daniel Giraffe, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:12 (4 years ago) Permalink

"(or at least try and justify it)"

I don't disagree with this. But there's obv a huge gap between justifying something and covering it up.

Anyway, you're right. It's not worth debating over. The whole thing just has me sick to my stomach and it's 4:20 here when I should be sleeping instead of reading about this.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:22 (4 years ago) Permalink

Oh, woah. It's 4:20.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:22 (4 years ago) Permalink

this is obviously completely fucked up

mordy otm itt

I think you are missing the point of the flotilla. It's not simply a matter of delivering much-needed supplies to Gaza. The point is to violate the Israeli blockade.

indeed: both israel and egypt said they would be fine with the supplies being landed and conveyed into gaza by truck

history mayne, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:27 (4 years ago) Permalink

I try to stay off these threads because Mordy is constantly defending all manner of inexcusable Israeli atrocities, but I strongly disagree with your defense of his blatant idiocy, and Super Cub is the one who's otm here.

bug holocaust (sleeve), Monday, 31 May 2010 08:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

i think it's too early in the day to call this an 'inexcusable atrocity' but perhaps you have fresh information

history mayne, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:53 (4 years ago) Permalink

up his sleeve

sir mountebank (velko), Monday, 31 May 2010 08:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

where the fuck do you see mordy's 'blatant idiocy' n e way? think you're just throwing down tough words

history mayne, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

Sleeve, Mordy brings a worthwhile perspective to these threads! Starting with a refusal to call others idiots for arguing for a different picture of the region.

I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Monday, 31 May 2010 09:02 (4 years ago) Permalink

Guardian's Jerusalem correspondent: http://twitter.com/harrietsherwood

I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Monday, 31 May 2010 09:11 (4 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Mordy's a lot of things, but captain save-an-Israel he's not. He might have more invested in it as a state than some of us, but the investment seems mainly of the "i hope one day they'll stop being assholes" variety, and in this case it's "I hope they're not killing unarmed people because that will lead to even more tragedy". A pretty reasonable position, imo.

Fetchboy, Monday, 31 May 2010 10:47 (4 years ago) Permalink

One of my very brightest Jewish friends from school is Israeli-born and heavily invested in Zionism (let's just say a cousin of hers has been in a coma for four years). I am reluctant to discuss it with her because her emotionalism around I/P is completely at variance to how coolly and logically she looks at any other issue.

I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Monday, 31 May 2010 10:59 (4 years ago) Permalink

I basically feel the same about those heavily invested in anti-Zionisim

Ismael Klata, Monday, 31 May 2010 11:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

so this isn't very good. also feeling more like IDF overkill.

Gee, Officer (Gukbe), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:06 (4 years ago) Permalink

hate to say it but we pretty much saw this coming, can't even for a minute begin to think of rationalizing or defending this massacre though

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 14:18 (4 years ago) Permalink

again, i'd wait till we had a clearer picture of what happened before trying to 'rationalize' it

if it's true that the israeli commandos landed on the ship and just began unloading into the sleeping civilians (as claimed), then indeed that would be indefensible

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:21 (4 years ago) Permalink

it'd be indefensible imo even if the civilians weren't 'sleeping' - and it seems there have been a handful of posts itt that have already tried to justify and rationalize it

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 14:25 (4 years ago) Permalink

idk though like - up to 19 people on the boat killed w/ many more wounded compared to 2 attackers wounded - what did they have, slingshots?

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 14:26 (4 years ago) Permalink

pretty standard IDF casualty numbers imo

Gee, Officer (Gukbe), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:27 (4 years ago) Permalink


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