Is this anti-semitism?

the ratios i've seen are way off 1:1, unsurprisingly

Obviously we won't know anything for sure probably for months until all the facts come out. This is worth looking at:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2014/07/half-of-dead-in-gaza-are-terrorists.html#.U9KbsBZ1ZfM

As well as this from Cast Lead in 2009:
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_print=1&x_context=7&x_issue=76&x_article=1952

'The elder of ziyon' is hardly a credible, independent source tbh

what the don't the elders know they're supposed to be SECRET

The Elder of Ziyon III: Morrowind

hahahaha

Why isn't he credible? Bc he's pro Israel? He is like every other blogger on the internet. He analyzes primary sources and gives his opinion. You should be reading all media skeptically.

Yes, statements like 'No NGO in Gaza is checking up on those, because they have a vested interest in making Israel look as bad as possible.' is clearly based on primary sources.

Add the three missing days of casualties (roughly 40 total, assume 20 terrorists), plus some percentage of the 41 who were undetermined last week, and it is clear that roughly half of the dead in Gaza are in fact terrorist - despite the horrific reports of entire buildings collapsing on families that seem to indicate otherwise.

Some assumptions. Some rough percentages.

sorry. first paragraph should have been in quote.

I find even calculating a ratio of terrorists:civilian dead offensive tbh, precisely the kind of horribly cynical calculus that drives this never-ending bullshit. Just the idea that you can draw a line (how many deaths is too many?) is gross. Human lives are not a math equation.

"like oh we killed a kid but we also killed a terrorist - MORAL VICTORY!" fuck you

better a guilty man goes free than an innocent man dies etc

If you want to discuss proportionality that's what is required.

I thought proportionality had to do with the deaths on each side

not the different types of death on just one side

I'm pretty much repeating myself, but proportionality has to do with civilian casualities compared to military importance. Not just terrorist >< civilian.

Therefore, again, the lack of strategic goals with this war is damning.

strategic goal is obviously to cripple Hamas (actual provocation is just a handy pretext)

Does anybody expect them to achieve that? And if they don't, if another war like this break out in a few years, will Israel all of a sudden say they lost this war?

Israel expects to achieve it. Hamas expects that they can goad Israel into committing enough atrocities that Israel will withdraw and some of Hamas' external sources of support will reestablish themselves.

idk which is more likely outcome tbh

that should say "enough atrocities that international pressure will force Israel to withdraw"

the whole thing is super hard for me to take. mixed in with all the airline crashes the scale of senseless suffering in the news is at psychically insupportable levels

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Friday, July 25, 2014 10:23 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

For what it's worth, and I don't mean to be overly dramatic about this, especially while sitting safely in the United States, but I have been in pretty much constant serious psychic distress over this for all of my waking hours for the past several days. I guess it's a combination of sadness at the loss of life, guilt at feeling like I am somehow associated with the conflict, fear of retributive antisemitism, and dissonance between my opposition to the Israeli military campaign combined with my inability to come up with a good answer to people I know who say that they or their relatives live under constant stress and fear from rockets (regardless of whether they are ultimately ineffective, it's still constant sheltering, sirens, and the occasional explosion), and this includes members of my own family by marriage who I have found warm and wonderful people and yet are capable of blindness and sometimes even hate that shocks me.

'live under constant stress and fear from rockets (regardless of whether they are ultimately ineffective, it's still constant sheltering, sirens, and the occasional explosion)'

otm. and at the risk of being completely facile, anyone who can't see this should read Gravity's Rainbow. hamas' rocket attacks might be the purest form of terror, in that they at this point can't be thought to hit anything, their only reliable function is to inflict terror.

I find even calculating a ratio of terrorists:civilian dead offensive tbh, precisely the kind of horribly cynical calculus that drives this never-ending bullshit. Just the idea that you can draw a line (how many deaths is too many?) is gross. Human lives are not a math equation.

― Οὖτις, Friday, July 25, 2014 7:32 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"like oh we killed a kid but we also killed a terrorist - MORAL VICTORY!" fuck you

― Οὖτις, Friday, July 25, 2014 7:33 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Is this called 'moral posture'?

If someone frequently debates the morality of something, it makes them look like they are in fact moral, even when they're not. Or they are intensely interested in one moral issue, and this confers a sense of morality to actions taken on another issue, which in fact they've not thought about and are really acting on a base instinct.

For example, say I'm really interested in animal welfare issues, and always discussing them. Meanwhile I'm mistreating my partner pretty badly. The people who know me from the discussion group hear about this and think, well, you know, seems like a thoughtful guy, right? It doesn't sound like him to mess people around like that.

Meanwhile, if someone never really discusses morality, they can still be moral, but may look immoral by comparison to someone who we know is 'always thinking about right and wrong'.

Do countries, though, have this same 'moral posture' or is it only individuals? Do the IDF and/or Hamas put on moral postures?

If I say it whilst killing, is 'We regret that we have to kill children' better or worse than 'We must save our children'? Is either of those an accurate account of what the IDF and/or Hamas say?

Why isn't he credible? Bc he's pro Israel? He is like every other blogger on the internet. He analyzes primary sources and gives his opinion. You should be reading all media skeptically.

― Mordy, Friday, July 25, 2014 2:18 PM (2 days ago)

you realize his "primary sources" are the IDF press releases?

it turned out that in 2009 idf had the most accurate numbers after the conflict had ended

Surely you understand that both IDF and Hamas are the sources least to be trusted while still in this conflict. It's all spin and propaganda, from both sides.

https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10299019_10204090580762891_7010292069091188649_n.jpg

Israel Discount Bank on 5th Ave. NYC

that is not good

fuck

hey if israel didn't keep bombing gaza people wouldn't need to keep desecrating jewish businesses #seehowthisworks

the whole thing is super hard for me to take. mixed in with all the airline crashes the scale of senseless suffering in the news is at psychically insupportable levels

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Friday, July 25, 2014 10:23 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

For what it's worth, and I don't mean to be overly dramatic about this, especially while sitting safely in the United States, but I have been in pretty much constant serious psychic distress over this for all of my waking hours for the past several days. I guess it's a combination of sadness at the loss of life, guilt at feeling like I am somehow associated with the conflict, fear of retributive antisemitism, and dissonance between my opposition to the Israeli military campaign combined with my inability to come up with a good answer to people I know who say that they or their relatives live under constant stress and fear from rockets (regardless of whether they are ultimately ineffective, it's still constant sheltering, sirens, and the occasional explosion), and this includes members of my own family by marriage who I have found warm and wonderful people and yet are capable of blindness and sometimes even hate that shocks me.

― 'arry Goldman (Hurting 2), Friday, July 25, 2014 10:46 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm. i don't have a coherent response to this other than just feeling sad and overwhelmed. glad you called out "while sitting safely in the United States" because i am aware of that for sure. but yea it's this conflict and all the other suffering going on in the world right now just seems really heavy. the central american kids at the border. syria. ukraine. plus all the other conflicts and suffering and death that i'm not even really clued into. i wish i could be somebody who has a self-righteous position and a argument that i could confidently make to comment on any number of these things. not to simply possess knowledge of it but to be able to emotionally comprehend and make sense of it. but that's kind of impossible. how can you make sense of it? overall i just feel helpless because i can't do anything to change it and i also don't even really understand it. my wife and i have been talking about all this stuff a lot and she'll ask a question about the nature of one of these conflicts or some historical aspect and 97% of the time i just have to say "you know, i don't really know, i am so uneducated about this."

hey if israel didn't keep bombing gaza people wouldn't need to keep desecrating jewish businesses #seehowthisworks

#idontseehowthatworks - you're trying to draw an equivalency to: if Hamas didn't keep firing rockets Israel wouldn't need to return fire? bc i'm pretty sure the Israel Discount Bank in NYC didn't throw any blood on pro-palestinian protestors.

pretty sure tracer hand was satirising dumb knee jerk internet comments? #atleastihopeso

oh, i hope so

poe's law

i'm saying that dumbass "he started it" justifications for indefensible behavior should be beneath adult human beings in 2014

wow

blowinminds.jpg

sorry u disagree

what's wrong with throwing blood on the Israel Discount Bank anyway? Seems pretty on-point. 'Desecrating Jewish Businesses' lol

xp hey i think it's great. we need more trenchant internet-comment level posts on ilx

idgi

"bombing kids? i learned it from watching u dad" - israel aka usa jr.

While I don't condone that kind of behavior, it seems pretty clear to me that they targeted an Israeli business, not just a "Jewish" business, and also it's not like they targeted some Israeli falafel stand, they targeted one of the largest Israeli banks, and I would not be surprised if there is some specific tie between that bank and, e.g., the occupation or the financing of settlements.

^^^this

Yeah but it's also a form of desecration that's explicitly anti-semitic, right? Like this is a step above breaking windows

a lot of assumptions about intentions there

While I don't condone that kind of behavior, it seems pretty clear to me that they targeted an Israeli business, not just a "Jewish" business

Phew, what a relief. Though next time they should probably use the fake blood to write a note, so that we all can better understand intent.