Is this anti-semitism?

not from europe iirc

And check out the Eurovision Song Contest for the mainstream European view of Russia.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/24/5930855/EU-sanctions-on-russia

xxxxxp From Chechnya, to Georgia and Ukraine (and even if we ignored support shown to some rogue states), the Russia government in the past 15 years has killed enough children for us to have photos to pass around. That didn't really happen.

Chechnya was another asymmetric unconventional war that produced a civilian death toll that eclipses Gaza.

In November 2004, the chairman of Chechnya's pro-Moscow State Council, Taus Djabrailov, said over 200,000 people have been killed in the Chechen Republic since 1994, including over 20,000 children.[19]

I guess I do see it as disproportionate, and I feel that anti-Semitism plays no small part in inflating the anti-Israel sentiment to the point where it is really easily confused with anti-Jew (when that aspect is not obvious/explicit, at least). I have yet to see anti Russia marches, or anti Syria marches, or protests, or anything like that, as passionate and vitriolic as those directed at Israel. Now, you could argue that Syria, or Ukraine, or whatever, just to pick on Russian-fueled conflicts, are newer, and fresher, and thus not as worthy of the opprobrium surrounding a decades long conflict like that in or around Israel. But ... isn't this just when you would expect louder voices and more actions? Before something becomes an intractable situation? The issue, I think - and some might disagree - is that the Palestinian rights/state movement has been tied in super closely to anti-Semitism from the start, certainly since well before the actual founding of Israel, and it's becoming harder and harder to separate the two.

xpost

But you see, Russian lacks the moral high ground. No one expects them to take care not to harm civilians or children or whomever, therefore, no one blinks when they inevitably transgress. See also: lots of places, people, and nations. Israel seems to be the one non-Western nation to whom critics ascribe an utterly unsustainable high standard. Imo.

pictures from paris demonstrations:
https://www.facebook.com/vrej.minassian/posts/10152615710786639

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10516833_10152615703951639_7208886481170636144_n.jpg?oh=37fed7a84a59fbd7b49a6d586b4ba3b0&oe=543ED287&__gda__=1413118418_ea5226b0f39dcf076f71c2356f96b07f

Also, Russia is usually dealt with by European countries (sanctions) whereas they have been mostly inactive in regards to Israel since july 8. Part of it is because Germany wish to remain silent when it comes to Israel, understandably.

Russia's not half been dealt with enough, not because the west is more prone to look at Israel, but simply because of economic dependency. Money over principle. Cynical but that's what's been going on forever. Boycotting Israel (though I don't know of any EU countries actively doing that? BDS support comes mostly from South-America iirc) is 'easier' because it doesn't hurt so much financially.

The comic with the men in the kaki shirt and the policemen goes as:

- I believe in the Shoah and it's prophet Elie Wiesel.
- It's ok we'll let you pass.

and pineapples are a reference to Dieudonné's musical hit Shoannanas, which is a portemanteau between pineapples and shoah. Just making sure we know what we are dealing with.

Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, Mali, Sudan, not to mention all the countries and places so far gone no one even talks about them anymore.

Oh give me a break. You haven't noticed Ukraine and Iraq, at the very least, in the news this past month? Isis? MH17? Ring any bells? I absolutely agree that some people
are unhealthily, anti-semitically obsessed with Israel's offences but it's nonsense to suggest that nobody's talking about Putin or Islamist extremism anymore.

Also, there aren't a bunch of pro-Hamas, pro-Iran, pro-Syria, pro-ISIS or pro-Russian talking heads on the Sunday morning talk show circuit making the case for why their acts are justified

surely that's defensive - no one believes that if pro-israel voices disappear then anti-israel voices will disappear too

Plenty of people are talking about Putin and Russia and Ukraine and Isis and the downed plane. But they are being talked about largely, to my ears, in measured tones. There are not people on the streets throwing rocks through the windows of Russian businesses and shops.

Also, there aren't a bunch of pro-Hamas, pro-Iran, pro-Syria, pro-ISIS or pro-Russian talking heads on the Sunday morning talk show circuit making the case for why their acts are justified

Part of this is what I was referencing earlier: no one expects this. It is expected that the aforementioned behave exactly as they are behaving, therefore they do not need to justify their actions. Yet Israel is expected to be better than that, so Israel must defend its actions.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/24/new-french-immigrants-to-israel-better-a-night-in-a-bomb-shelter-than-stroll-in-paris-wearing-a-kippah/

The Arab street is a different matter but it's hardly surprising that Israel is going to get disproportionate criticism in the west when it gets disproportionate support. Things like the US veto and Congress's fawning over Bibi will breed protests because such unthinking one-sided support feels manifestly unjust. There is no need to protest against (for example) ISIS when most of the world's governments have already condemned it.

The Arab street is a different matter

Yeah, easy to dismiss tens of millions of people.

If people condemned Israel with the same pro forma fervor with which they condemn Isis, then this thread wouldn't be as relevant.

Thank you DL. I just drafted and redrafted a few posts trying to say just that.

422 million ppl in the 'arab world'!

i see the US veto + ongoing western support as a necessary counterpoint to a UN heavily dominated by Muslim voices and human rights violators like Russia and China who have no problem censoring a country to further a geopolitical agenda.

xp Saying they're a different matter isn't dismissing them. Don't be daft.

thank god the US isn't a 'human rights violator,' eh

Drone Nation US is horrible on that front. Maybe we're just too used to people burning our flag?

Anyway, learning that there are schools in fucking Denmark that Jews are warned to avoid for fear of majority Muslim reprisal was just ... ugh. I consider the criticism of Israel disproportionate because the Jewish people are disproportionately small, and disproportionately vulnerable. That anti-Semitism is one of the loudest forms of prejudice in the world cannot be chalked up to "Israel." There's much more at work there, not least the volume of anti-Jew sentiment that one must contend with from entire regions/countries before you even factor in crossover anti-Israel sentiment in Europe, or America, or South America or wherever.

good point. as long as the UN is a cynical amorality play between corrupt countries trying to leverage international justice as just another realm within which to pursue nationalistic policies let's not force one country to play w/ its arms tied behind its back. every other country in the world gets to be supported by their ideological + strategic allies. xp

You guys ever wonder if all this middle east conflict is some actual god vs. devil thing? Like in John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness when the priest is like "we've been lying to people about the nature of christianity this whole time that it was about being good to one another, but turns out we've actually got Satan in a jar in the basement!" Us enlightened westerners all being like, "jeez it's just one bunch of fundies warring against another bunch or fundies all over some barren scrap of real estate" but the Israeli and American presidents have secretly been sweating hard about the very existence of the universe for decades or something.

Well, Denmark is getting more and more polarized. Another news story this summer was about muslim women getting verbally and in some cases pysically abused because they were wearing a headscarf. Several right-wing voices, including the former leader of the Danish Peoples Party, then came out saying it was their own fault.

So, me, upthread. Wasn't trolling. Also, wan't saying the IDF were directly responsible for anti-semitic attacks in other countries. My 'what about that' was meant to mean 'what about that whole broad issue', not 'suck it'. Looking back on it, it does look inflammatory.

on another note:
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/04/09/last-of-warsaw-ghetto-survivors-calls-for-rebellion-against-israeli-occupation/

Mordy, I seem to recall articles about the 'murder' or 'slaughter' of 'innocent' 'children' coming out in response to all kinds of conflicts since 9-11. And coming from supporters of all factions - a forum I used to frequent had people from India and Pakistan on it who would throw around this rhetoric, anti-war people used it during Iraq, pro-war people used it during Iraq ...

and of course 'I seem to recall' isn't much use as evidence, no

but I think if we were going to decide whether that rhetoric really gets used only about Israel, or whether people use it much more about Israel than about any other conflict, we'd want to actually do some statistical word-counting, no? Probably outside the scope of this thread, probably a media studies PhD

You guys ever wonder if all this middle east conflict is some actual god vs. devil thing?

would that it were so. it would make things so much simpler

Something else I've thought, watching this season's conflict and its responses unfold, is that it may be the measured, balanced, grave, remorseful, calm, professional way the Israeli government and media talk about the conflict that drives outside observers fucking wild. (Consider that this is how most people not living in the territory will get awareness of the conflict there.)

The talk of 'unfortunate but unavoidable' civilian deaths, the fantasy of a rational and just war, when everyone knows that war, Israeli or British or Korean or Nigerian, war generally, isn't like that. And when everyone knows that Israeli deaths are never 'unfortunate but unavoidable', that in fact the death of one IDF soldier or two has several times been used to justify full-scale ground assaults in Gaza and in Lebanon.

There is a great tide of old bad blood and tribal hate in Israeli warfare - just as there is in Palestinian warfare - ask any actual normal Israeli - and to see the Israeli elite on TV disavowing it (to see anyone pretending they are not doing what they are doing) is arguably enough to make any human being angry. So some kind of hateful wild response that, in its excess, naturally spills over and targets a general notion of The Jews is ... and you see, I almost said it was unfortunate but unavoidable.

If I actually came out and said that - anti-semitism is unfortunate but unavoidable, given Israel's activities in the conflict with the Palestinians, I wouldn't just be an idiot, but a creepy idiot. There would be so, so much wrong in that statement. It isn't just 'unfortunate' when anti-semitism means that Jewish kids in France in 2014 have to go to school in an armoured bus, and it's not 'unavoidable' because the simplest intelligence ought to distinguish between a kid in France and an armed man in Gaza who have practically nothing to do with each other. If I said the anti-semitism in France was unfortunate but unavoidable, I'd be saying that violent collective punishment based on weak, capricious allegations was unavoidable.

Cool rationalisations of violence, and violence-producing rhetoric in response to violence, seem like they're bound to keep on reproducing each other indefinitely

Your equivalency is nuts.

I'm not expecting anyone to have much time for my last post. It's probably going to be one of those where I wish we had an 'edit' button on here. Okay, but what about the earlier one, e.g.,

Mordy, I seem to recall articles about the 'murder' or 'slaughter' of 'innocent' 'children' coming out in response to all kinds of conflicts since 9-11. And coming from supporters of all factions - a forum I used to frequent had people from India and Pakistan on it who would throw around this rhetoric, anti-war people used it during Iraq, pro-war people used it during Iraq ...

Pretty obviously you could say 'Well, Russian diplomats, British diplomats, etc, also put suits on and talk about unfortunate but unavoidable civilian deaths, why the focus on Israeli diplomats?'

I think that an anti war perspective so radical that it doesn't distinguish between explicitly targeting civilians (whether by rockets in Sderot or broken windows in Paris) from civilian fatalities in the course of war is sympathetic but ultimately incompatible with my personal values. If you want to equate the two I think you'll probably get a lot of agreement here but not from me.

Israel has been explicitly targeting civilians

it's weird that you won't acknowledge this

Even if it hasn't, there's the finest of fine lines between targeting civilians and achieving what are arguably legitimate military objectives in a manner that you know will create a huge civilian death toll (imprecise bombing /shelling of populated areas) out of all proportion to the number of combatants getting hit.

It's not just a question for Israel, though.

We seem to be coming quite close to saying 'Some kids died in Gaza (in the course of war), and some anti-semites (intentionally) smashed a synagogue's windows in Paris: the latter is worse' which is something that I am willing to entertain but ultimately can't agree with

that's certainly what I've read here today and I'm shocked SHOCKRD

For what little it's worth, I have been arguing on Facebook with someone who posted a meme that said 'Fuck Israel and Yehudis'

I asked them if that meant 'Jews' as in Jews not living in Israel and they said yes, the argument went on for some time, I began to get unpleasant inbox messages from friends of theirs

Has chatting with your antisemitic friends given you any insight into the current topic of discussion (the relationship between antisemitism and the pro-Palestinian movement) or just into how best to rank the "worseness" of various bad things?

the argument went on for some time

not sure what there was to argue about really

xp I'm more trying to point out that whatever disagreement I may have with you on this thread is pretty much a non-issue considering the value you bring to the discussion, cf the many things I had not thought about until ILX poster Mordy said them

I'm probably rather taking some kind of connection or goodwill between us for granted throughout this thread

For the record, these facebook 'friends', or 'friend' - one person, the others were not people I knew - is someone encountered only a few times in real life, more of an acquaintance