Is this anti-semitism?

its

anyway that's not relevant

Josh otm.

really good thread imo

As Israel’s assault on Gaza intensifies, it is not anti-Semitic to say: not in my name

And so goes the vicious paradox. We criticize Israel because it has enough of a moral compass to be susceptible to criticism. And yet, lack of moral compass is one of the most common accusations lobbed at Israel; they're barbaric, they're genocidal, they're murderous. But were Israel really, fully any of those things - because we all know they have better/bigger weapons/armies - well, then, there goes the moral high ground. Which of course Israel does not and never did have, anyway, because etc. etc.

Once again, Israel not only can't win, but apparently is not allowed to win, either. If it "won" with no bloodshed, it still loses. If it "wins" through diplomacy, it still loses. If it wins through attrition, it still loses. If it wins by any historical standard of victory, it loses, because it long ago lost the propaganda war that simultaneously positions Israel as having a higher moral standard and no moral standing. Perhaps similar to the curious strain of anti-Semitism that claims the Holocaust was both a fabrication but also the fault of the Jews, that the Jews are Nazis but also that the Holocaust was "a lie invented by the Zionists."

Meanwhile, brutality on a much, much larger scale plays out with impunity around the globe. Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, Mali, Sudan, not to mention all the countries and places so far gone no one even talks about them anymore. Are people still into Tibet? What's up with Somalia? Etc.

Hm I wonder where that word ghetto comes from.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, July 24, 2014 2:54 AM (13 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Venice.

I think it comes from Elvis.

Israel is winning. Massively. And has been since 1948. It is nonsense to suggest otherwise. As it is nonsense to suggest the west doesn't 'critisize' other - islamic - religious states. While there might not be demonstrations against Iran in the street, the west are sanctioning the regime, everyone was fully on the side of the green revolution, and Iranian scientists has a tendency to drop dead in mysterious ways. The rage against Israel comes out on 'the street' because it doesn't come out in politics.

That and anti-semitism. I don't want to deny that there is a massive problem with anti-semitism in Europe. Even in Denmark, it has gotten to the point where certain schools recommend that Jewish children don't attend. But the fact that the public is more mad at Israel than at Iran is not anti-semitic in and of itself.

Like, the west sent troops to Mali, forced an end to Sudan. It's not as if anybody just went 'eh, who cares'.

separating criticism of israel from anti-semitism is easier said then done, esp since israel's formation is itself a product of anti-semitism, and resistance to israel starting in 48 is only marginally ever about palestinian land rights (though it has become more about that in recent years) and almost entirely about the arabic nation states pushing the jews into the sea (after expelling them from their homes). this is something i was discussing w/ a very left-wing friend last week- while many western pro-palestinian leftists /are/ i believe primarily concerned about issues of human rights, the movement they have hitched their wagon to is historically an anti-jewish movement, aka radical islamism (and also to a lesser extent anti-semitic USSR 'communism'). you can't just wave your hand and be like "i'm only talking about X not Y." there is a pre-existing context.

Even in Denmark, it has gotten to the point where certain schools recommend that Jewish children don't attend.

WTF!?!?!?!

Oh, I should probably point out: Because they are majority-muslim schools, and the kids might get in trouble in the schoolyard.

lol does not make that better imo

The schools aren't anti-semitic. And it's kinda a moot point, since everyone else always pull out their kids of schools when they think there are too many muslims.

But no, it's not good. Not good at all.

i'd find this easier to discuss rationally if every day didn't bring news of another dozen dead children

one way you can tell that, at the very least, the arab street's resistance to israel is still primarily about anti-semitism (and also righting the historical wrong of having the arabic conquest of palestine overturned) is that rafah remains closed from the egyptian side, lebanon and syria still refuse to integrate their refugee populations, etc. it's a cliche at this point but true imo to say that arab treatment of the palestinians has historically been worse and more cynical than israeli treatment of the palestinians.

otm. and always important to remember.

and of course, also lebanese christian treatment of palestinians.

like i wonder if qatar or SA or UAE or whomever offered to accept gazan refugees how many would move (they won't tho - bc their position is the use of unsettled palestinian refugees as a tool against israel). nb also the reason why UNRWA is a separate organization from UNHCR. bc their have a different mandate - not resettling palestinian refugees but maintaining their refugee status quo.

@Josh

Yep, definitely no-one has spent the last 10+ years talking about and opposing the violence brought about by America's neo-colonialist adventures in Iraq. No one. And no one talks about those other places either. Yes violence and war continues in those places, but to imply that it goes on there "with impunity" as if the opposite is the case in I/P is simply false. Aside from a number of grass-roots movements and the withdrawal of several countries' diplomatic missions, what exactly have been the negative repercussions for Israel? It's not like politicians in the West are proposing liberal interventions into Israel as they do with Syria and Libya, etc.

Bonus points for comparing a 60+ year illegal occupation which has lead to thousands of deaths and untold displacement displaced (more than 2000 civilians killed during Cast Lead and this op btw) - which make your attempt to minimise them in scale laughable, with the civil war in Ukraine which has lasted a few months. And of course no one is talking about that either, that certainly hasn't been the focus of near constant media attention since Maidan started and politicians and the press are definitely not calling for sanctions against Russia.

This is first class whatboutery. I mean imagine if I, as a Russian, tried to defend our gov't and to deflect from the fact that we've been supplying the separatists with weapons by pointing to NATO/the US' funding and arming of factions in, idk, Syria..."but, but...this bad thing shouldn't matter because there is a bad thing happening over there!". It's absurd, and you'd call bullshit on it, rightfully.

I don't think the point is deflection or 'whatboutery'. This is the anti-semitism thread and I think it's an appropriate question to ask how much jew hatred is animating the pro-Palestinian movement - especially as explicit anti-semitism + anti-jewish violence has emerged directly from that movement. Part of answering that question is asking how response to Israel compares to responses to other global conflicts. There are understandable reasons why Israel holds such a locus of fascination for Western culture (I think I listed off a bunch of reasons above) but I also think it's clear that anti-semitism plays a role as well. If anything, it's 'whatboutery' to dismiss concerns about anti-semitism + the inordinate focus of the world of Israel by dismissing such concerns as an attempt to change the subject. When it comes to Israel, antisemitism is not changing the subject - it is the subject.

If I recall correctly, no one went on destroying russian commerces after what happened in Georgia and Ukraine. I haven't heard as many calls to boycott Russia, or even photos of dead infants all over twitter etc.

Calls for boycotting Russia are a dime a dozen these days. And you don't see photos of dead infants as much because the separatists/Russia aren't killing nearly as much children as Israel is?

@ Mordy, I agree that its important to look at the role of (and take action against) anti-Semitism in these movements, and in wider contexts, absolutely.

But I really don't see Josh's posts as doing that because to me they read as trying to portray the Israeli gov't as the recipient of disproportionate criticism while claiming that other states are being spared from it, which is simply not true. In those *other* cases its not only criticism that is rightfully directed at them, but often economic sanctions and (arguably less "rightly" in some cases) military intervention.

wtf, there are actual sanctions against Russia?

not from europe iirc

And check out the Eurovision Song Contest for the mainstream European view of Russia.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/24/5930855/EU-sanctions-on-russia

xxxxxp From Chechnya, to Georgia and Ukraine (and even if we ignored support shown to some rogue states), the Russia government in the past 15 years has killed enough children for us to have photos to pass around. That didn't really happen.

Chechnya was another asymmetric unconventional war that produced a civilian death toll that eclipses Gaza.

In November 2004, the chairman of Chechnya's pro-Moscow State Council, Taus Djabrailov, said over 200,000 people have been killed in the Chechen Republic since 1994, including over 20,000 children.[19]

I guess I do see it as disproportionate, and I feel that anti-Semitism plays no small part in inflating the anti-Israel sentiment to the point where it is really easily confused with anti-Jew (when that aspect is not obvious/explicit, at least). I have yet to see anti Russia marches, or anti Syria marches, or protests, or anything like that, as passionate and vitriolic as those directed at Israel. Now, you could argue that Syria, or Ukraine, or whatever, just to pick on Russian-fueled conflicts, are newer, and fresher, and thus not as worthy of the opprobrium surrounding a decades long conflict like that in or around Israel. But ... isn't this just when you would expect louder voices and more actions? Before something becomes an intractable situation? The issue, I think - and some might disagree - is that the Palestinian rights/state movement has been tied in super closely to anti-Semitism from the start, certainly since well before the actual founding of Israel, and it's becoming harder and harder to separate the two.

xpost

But you see, Russian lacks the moral high ground. No one expects them to take care not to harm civilians or children or whomever, therefore, no one blinks when they inevitably transgress. See also: lots of places, people, and nations. Israel seems to be the one non-Western nation to whom critics ascribe an utterly unsustainable high standard. Imo.

pictures from paris demonstrations:
https://www.facebook.com/vrej.minassian/posts/10152615710786639

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10516833_10152615703951639_7208886481170636144_n.jpg?oh=37fed7a84a59fbd7b49a6d586b4ba3b0&oe=543ED287&__gda__=1413118418_ea5226b0f39dcf076f71c2356f96b07f

Also, Russia is usually dealt with by European countries (sanctions) whereas they have been mostly inactive in regards to Israel since july 8. Part of it is because Germany wish to remain silent when it comes to Israel, understandably.

Russia's not half been dealt with enough, not because the west is more prone to look at Israel, but simply because of economic dependency. Money over principle. Cynical but that's what's been going on forever. Boycotting Israel (though I don't know of any EU countries actively doing that? BDS support comes mostly from South-America iirc) is 'easier' because it doesn't hurt so much financially.

The comic with the men in the kaki shirt and the policemen goes as:

- I believe in the Shoah and it's prophet Elie Wiesel.
- It's ok we'll let you pass.

and pineapples are a reference to Dieudonné's musical hit Shoannanas, which is a portemanteau between pineapples and shoah. Just making sure we know what we are dealing with.

Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, Mali, Sudan, not to mention all the countries and places so far gone no one even talks about them anymore.

Oh give me a break. You haven't noticed Ukraine and Iraq, at the very least, in the news this past month? Isis? MH17? Ring any bells? I absolutely agree that some people
are unhealthily, anti-semitically obsessed with Israel's offences but it's nonsense to suggest that nobody's talking about Putin or Islamist extremism anymore.

Also, there aren't a bunch of pro-Hamas, pro-Iran, pro-Syria, pro-ISIS or pro-Russian talking heads on the Sunday morning talk show circuit making the case for why their acts are justified

surely that's defensive - no one believes that if pro-israel voices disappear then anti-israel voices will disappear too

Plenty of people are talking about Putin and Russia and Ukraine and Isis and the downed plane. But they are being talked about largely, to my ears, in measured tones. There are not people on the streets throwing rocks through the windows of Russian businesses and shops.

Also, there aren't a bunch of pro-Hamas, pro-Iran, pro-Syria, pro-ISIS or pro-Russian talking heads on the Sunday morning talk show circuit making the case for why their acts are justified

Part of this is what I was referencing earlier: no one expects this. It is expected that the aforementioned behave exactly as they are behaving, therefore they do not need to justify their actions. Yet Israel is expected to be better than that, so Israel must defend its actions.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/24/new-french-immigrants-to-israel-better-a-night-in-a-bomb-shelter-than-stroll-in-paris-wearing-a-kippah/

The Arab street is a different matter but it's hardly surprising that Israel is going to get disproportionate criticism in the west when it gets disproportionate support. Things like the US veto and Congress's fawning over Bibi will breed protests because such unthinking one-sided support feels manifestly unjust. There is no need to protest against (for example) ISIS when most of the world's governments have already condemned it.

The Arab street is a different matter

Yeah, easy to dismiss tens of millions of people.

If people condemned Israel with the same pro forma fervor with which they condemn Isis, then this thread wouldn't be as relevant.

Thank you DL. I just drafted and redrafted a few posts trying to say just that.

422 million ppl in the 'arab world'!

i see the US veto + ongoing western support as a necessary counterpoint to a UN heavily dominated by Muslim voices and human rights violators like Russia and China who have no problem censoring a country to further a geopolitical agenda.