Is this anti-semitism?

murder != dying. that's a very important point. even manslaughter != murder. murder implies something very incendiary and very specific.

as does 'genocide,' 'massacre,' 'slaughter,' 'cleansing'

how many hundreds of innocent women and children have been killed this week alone in iraq and syria?

I'm pretty sure the shi'a and shi'ites are rioting/killing each other in retaliation what is your point.

murder implies something very incendiary and very specific.

how is being killed by a military with a missile not murder

Intent?

like in discussions of other wars, have you ever heard the phrase, "X army murdered Y civilians" in any literature about it? that's not how we talk about civilian deaths during war. maybe you are radically anti-war and so believe that we should always consider civilian fatalities as murders, but as a rule humans don't use that type of language except about one particular conflict. and not even one particular targeted group - Assad is never said to have murdered civilians in the Syrian refugee camps when they drop ordinance on al-Yarmouk.

Is Israel even allowed to win, or is victory totally off the table, because, you know, Jews?

what do you mean? the likud government?

this is maybe for the Israel thread but I mean a specific state, a government, regardless of its actual composition. separation of church and state is a really, really good idea for all kinds of reasons and this is one of them.

xxp

like in discussions of other wars, have you ever heard the phrase, "X army murdered Y civilians" in any literature about it?

idk I'm reading the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich right now and um yeah. And then there's stuff like Mai Lai, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, the rape of Nanking, I could go on and on but it gets depressing

of course rape of nanking killed more civilians in first 10 minutes than all ppl killed in gaza conflict over last 2 weeks. by 1941 they were killing 2,000 civilians per hour in Auschwitz. when militaries intentionally target civilians, the numbers put the israeli attack on gaza into very obv contrast.

Assad is never said to have murdered civilians in the Syrian refugee camps when they drop ordinance on al-Yarmouk.

uh ... really?

innocent children

well yeah that's why I think terms like genocide or ethnic cleansing are not really accurate. as far as numbers in general being way lower, modern warfare is not nearly as deadly as it used to be - both because of the weapons involved and because of countries' actions being more closely scrutinized and harder to hide. (I assume the worst about most people in military power, they'd happily kill as many of the enemy as they could if they didn't think there would be any repercussions)

but it's true I am really anti-war in general

is it a moral failing to distinguish between an army inflicting civilian casualties (while, by all reports, making enormous effects to limit them - and obv every honest person realizes that every civilian israel kills hurts them; they have a huge interest in not killing civilians) and an army intentionally committing genocide against a civilian body? i feel like you think so, but i can't get on page with that. i hate war too, but i don't think these are minor distinctions. and i think trying to characterize the former as the latter is a blatant attempt to stir up violence against jews. "jews are children killers" is a trope that long predates the establishment of the state of israel.

VHS, the redundancy of 'innocent children' (and accompanying irony) isn't mine. it's the language i've seen online for the last two weeks. it's an attempt to emotionally color the conflict in as inflammatory a way as possible.

speaking to your larger point, I don't think it's disputable that yes the phrase "X army murdered Y civilians" comes up all the time in reporting on military conflicts, particularly when there's no battlefield and there's a lot of indiscriminate bombing going on, or when a town/city gets taken and there's widespread chaos and a bunch of people die. Maybe I've just read too many morbid accounts of military adventures (Robert Fisk's reportage on Iraq/Iran or the Algerian civil war spring to mind)

xp

oh yeah, i agree with you Mordy on the manipulative rhetoric.

but maybe it's not a calculated and deliberate attempt to color the conflict in as inflammatory a way as possible, perhaps it's an expression of widespread revulsion and outrage against israeli actions?

i've seen 'murder' and similar language used a lot in regard to civilian deaths in iraq, syria, libya, drone strikes, et al. i'm not totally antiwar but i think civilian casualties ought to horrify and disgust us, never really excusable imo and i don't think it's particularly 'radical' to think so.

i agree that the protestors find israel's actions more outrageous than any other world conflict

why?

an army inflicting civilian casualties (while, by all reports, making enormous effects to limit them - and obv every honest person realizes that every civilian israel kills hurts them; they have a huge interest in not killing civilians) and an army intentionally committing genocide against a civilian body?

lol "by all reports" you mean by the IDF's own propaganda I assume. I doubt anyone who was killed while lying in a hospital thought Israel was doing everything they could to limit civilian deaths. And yeah you would think that Israel realizes that civilian deaths are not in their interest and yet it doesn't seem to deter them *that* much - they play this game of chicken of "well if we kill fewer than X civilians it will be worth political goal Y" - which is just the sickest most cynical fucking shit, I cannot abide by it, even moreso because I am associated with it by virtue of the state's identification with the Jewish people.

I think the distinction you draw between civilian casualties and intentional genocide is primarily one of scale, and that's pretty much it. Which is why I would not call this a genocide. But it is death at the hands of a military, which I consider murder, and I consider it wrong.

xp

take a look at the thread title xp

by "protests" i don't mean breaking windows

if you're question is why i think the I/P conflict moves so many ppl despite being relatively inconsequential by global standards (involving very few ppl, not dealing w/ areas of high economic value) there are a lot of good reasons. a) it has been going on for so long. b) it has a dramatic arc that involves the UN. c) it's an easy target for anti-colonialism, anti-western leftism. d) protests primarily occurring in areas w/ large immigrant arab populations who obv have very high affinity w/ palestinians. e) idk you could think of many more reasons i'm sure. but why leftists, who are often scrupulous about facts + reality [having a left-wing bent], would call this operation a 'genocide,' and post pictures of dead children on fb? i think anti-semitism + hate. or emotions stoked by ppl who have an interest in fomenting anti-semitism + hate (eg Erdogan, Hamas, etc).

your*

idk why anyone posts anything on facebook tbh

I do think its weird to suspect American leftists of being (not so secret) anti-semites that just doesn't reflect the reality of any of the leftists I've ever run with

like maybe they are just really appalled at Israel and America's complicity in it and go overboard with the strongest rhetoric at hand (leftists def prone to hyper-extreme flights of rhetoric)

i think the part about the complicity of western governments is a big thing

why are people not protesting against assad? because our government is already applying pressure to get rid of him.

also perhaps because the conflict is grossly disproportionate compared to, say, sectarian violence in iraq

except people don't protest in the same ways about things that our very western governments do. i can't even find an exact number of children that the united states has "murdered" in yemen this year alone. these statistics are barely thought worth keeping. certainly no graphs that detail each dead baby w/ a baby icon (like i saw today)

and btw - US v. yemen or pakistan is also "grossly disproportionate" - though generally disproportionate doesn't really mean the way i think you're using it? from what i understand proportionality is about the number of combatants killed v. the number of civilians. not the comparable military might of the two actors (which is obv disproportionate any time we're discussing unconventional warfare).

i meant the military might of the two actors

btw i think that graph would be a very good thing for most americans to see, and i certainly don't support US drone strikes on yemen or pakistan. i try to protest those too, when i can.

i meant a dead baby graph for yemen

well to what do you ascribe the difference between protests of US civilian fatalities in yemen and pakistan versus similar IDF fatalities in gaza?

Obama. Mainstream left will not criticize his foreign policy - and he is directly responsible for drone deaths in Yemen (and Afghanistan, and Pakistan etc) as our respected Dr. Morbz never fails to point out. Only the hardcore left takes him to task over this (and have done on this very board), otherwise Democrats circle the wagons.

xp you win, antisemitism, i guess

¯\(°_o)/¯

obv we can agree that some things are def antisemitism. like #hitlerwasright twitter tags trending. or protest chants in berlin that call jews pigs:
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/179842/berlin-protesters-chant-jew-jew-cowardly-pig-come-on-out-and-fight

i guess i just see more of it on the continuum and maybe you guys are more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to things that have some level of plausible deniability.

left was plenty eager to get apoplectic over Dubya's civilian deaths, at least once Iraq turned into the total shitshow that it was destined to become. My bro put civilian death photos in Arthur iirc (not that that's a huge mainstream publication or your facebook wall but it was leftist press)

xp

yeah I'm not really going to express surprise that their rabid anti-semites in france, belgium, germany etc. the U.S. not so much. Sure we have our st0rmfr0nters and whatnot but a) they are not leftists and b) they are p small (and justifiably ostracized) minority

there are rabid anti-semites

that should say

well the united states is broadly very pro-israel. i'm not so worried about jews in the united states being exposed to antisemitic violence under a pretext of protesting gaza. both major parties are still outdoing each other trying to express support for israel atm.

but i think probably jews in turkey should leave asap
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/17/violent-riots-target-israel-embassy-in-turkey-ihh-head-says-turkish-jews-will-pay-dearly-photos/

there are rabbit anti-semites

http://mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_640x430/public/bugs-hitler_6.jpg

Mordy knows my stance - and many among me - that Israel is way over the line, killing many, many innocent people, women, children. And I am glad that even in Holland - always a staunch defender of Israel no matter what - Israel is under more and more scrutiny over this.

Fortunately I do signal - here at least - a slow yet steady improvement in that people do not blame 'the Jews' for it, but distinctively Israel/Israeli government. The people that are responsible. Not an entire people, not "the Jews". Which is heartening.

Heartening probably not the right word here, but you catch my drift.

As someone who identifies as of the left (as opposed to as a liberal), the presence of anti-Semitism in our "circles" (I use quotation marks because its such a fractured mess it would be silly to call it a movement, but that's for another time) is disgusting and deplorable, and it's our job to fight it. Shit politics, shit morals, shit people. Same goes for anti-Semitic sentiments and violence in wider society, but that should go without saying.

At the same time what Mordy some others are doing here - painting pretty much all criticism and opposition to the actions of the Israeli gov't and its military which is coming from outside of Israel as anti-Semitic is imo cynical and unfair. Don't want to get into an argument about this as we'd be here for the next decade (I'd site Butler's piece in the LRB on this but then iirc Mordy doesn't think much of her) but if you don't accept outside criticism, then I'm sure that you are aware of numerous people and organisations inside of Israel (Jewish and non-Jewish, leftist and liberal) who are harsh in their condemnation of both the Israeli gov't wider policies wrt to Palestinians and Arab-Israelis as well as military operations by the IDF, including the targeting of civilians, - +972, B'Tselem, and others, and who write at length and do (very brave, in the face of reactionary, often violent opposition) anti-racist, anti-war, anti-occupation activism in Israel.

yay holland
http://ejpress.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49816&catid=10