Elvis Presley: Classic Or Dud?

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"undervalued"??

― jones (actual), Thursday, 23 January 2003 23:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

Undervalued? Elvis coasted on his sheer Elvisness for the last decade.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 24 January 2003 00:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

By undervalued I meant his basic talent, not how he used it in his last couple of years. From 68 to 72 Elvis did not coast. He was still trying to please himself and his audience. 73 and 74 he still put on repectable shows and was working to make good music, to say he coasted for a decade is once again seeing the image portrayed of him by the media not what the truth was. I saw him in 76 in St. Louis, he gave a good show even then. I saw teenieboppers, young adults and gray haired men and women. I was 22 at the time. He is undervalued because someone is always looking for the reason he was great and coming up with instead "excuses for his success" Such as ,he was white, good looking and lucky, right place-right time etc... For some reason they leave the "well he may have had a huge amount of natural talent", till last or never mention it at all. Thats what I mean by undervalued.

― ken, Friday, 24 January 2003 00:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

(" Or did he never mean a goddamn thing to you? "
-- Tom (ebro...), April 30th, 2001.

quite apt, that. in my case. didn't ever mean much to me, really.
i have read, and probably will read, well-written articles (wouldn't stretch that to book-length, tho!) by various worthy people who have interesting - entertaining, meaningful, amusing, sad, shocking - things to say 'bout him, but i've never been tempted to get myself lots of his music (which doesn't mean i haven't heard any, "haha"). and the attempts of some of my best pals to help me "get it" haven't worked either. elvis simply fails to rock my world, period.)

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Friday, 24 January 2003 00:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

Col. Parker was what Elvis needed in the 50's, but in the late 60's he needed a Brian Epstein or someone of his kind to let Elvis explore, and grow. To particpate in new music that would not have necessarily been Elvis music(which still sold and was still good) but would have allowed other people in the music world to produce, play, and collaborate with him.

This statement is 100% OTM. He *did* collaborate with some different people on the Memphis sessions; is it any coincidence those sessions are some of his greatest? Even kings need to be challanged once in a while, not continuously coddled.

But everything he did after '56 sounds pretty close to easy listening to these ears.

Listen again. Maybe start with "Memories" (dud title), the soundtrack plus loads more of the famous "68 Comeback Special". Even the most MOR ballad is worth listening to in his hands... but don't worry; there's only a couple of those here! Of course there are many *ballads*... but with a couple exceptions ("Memories" itself being one of them), they're pretty electrifying.

I do agree he's undervalued too. It's strange saying that about one of the biggest stars of all time, but it's true. I guess I mean undervalued *artistically*.

― Sean (Sean), Friday, 24 January 2003 01:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

Best thing anyone ever said about Elvis, on the occasion of his death (does anyone know who said it): "It's like somebody just came up and told me there aren't going to be anymore cheeseburgers in the world."

Second best thing, from Nick Tosches: "I think that Elvis Presley will never be solved."

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 24 January 2003 05:21 (twenty-one years ago) link

And, I just remembered, third best thing, from the man himself: "I don't sing like nobody."

I used to think exactly the way Jim M does, but now I realize it's kinda silly: Elvis's post-Army stuff is frequently just too WEIRD to be "easy listening" - I mean, "Do The Clam"? "Old MacDonald Had A Farm"? "There's No Room To Rhumba In A Sports Car"? You can't make this stuff up. People will never cease to be impressed by The Beatles' interest in everything from random noise to showtunes, but the crackbrained audacity of Elvis's lifelong attempt to sing just about every type of song there was just makes them cringe.

Elvis was always a jumble of contradictions, musically and otherwise, no less pre-Army than after - that's what made him who he was. It's part of what made him so outrageous in the beginning: he was mixing blues with country with r&b and singing them in a way that often meant you couldn't tell where one genre left off and another began. That side of Elvis never really went away entirely, but we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking it was all there ever was. Just listen to "I Love You Because," recorded at Sun, and just as drecky and dull a song as he ever sang. He doesn't triumph over the dross: he succumbs to it, he likes it. Then listen to "I'm Left, You're Right, She's Gone," and marvel at how slick and professional he sounds: this guy could easily have made a career for himself as a straight entertainer all the way, without offending a soul. Then listen to "Blue Moon of Kentucky" and wonder, 'Where the hell did this guy come from?' Like Tosches said, no one will ever know.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 24 January 2003 05:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

I agree Elvis was a mass of contradictions personal and professional.
Theres a great saying, "For those who get it-no explanation is needed. For those who don't get it no explanation will do." I was at my brothers house and on VH1 they were running the 68 special, my niece and her boyfriend were watching also. They are 20 years old.
After about 15 minutes the boyfriend commented that he could not stop staring at Elvis. He said I never watch his movies, have heard little of his music but hes hypnotic,theres something about him that just draws you. Strange.

― Ken, Friday, 24 January 2003 14:41 (twenty-one years ago) link

EP Phone Home

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 24 January 2003 14:45 (twenty-one years ago) link

One of the saddest things I've ever seen is the closing section of Presley's '68 special. After an hour of thrashing out demonic rock 'n' roll/blues with Scotty Moore & Co, he retreats to stage front and starts to sing the featureless ballad "Memories" over an orchestral backing track. It is as if he has become Tantalus; he has had a taste of what his life used to be like, and he yearns to go back there and stay there but Col Parker/Col Parker's creditors/the world won't let him. He has to carry on to Vegas, to self-excoriation, to death even, just to keep the industry afloat. It's as if he is being dragged away from his life by invisible forces. It is heartbreaking.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 24 January 2003 14:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

Or when a PR encourage Elvis to walk amongst the plebians. He was frightened of recognition. He went out and realised that no-one knew who he was nor did they care.

― robotman, Friday, 24 January 2003 14:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

There is a great saying, "For those who get it-no explanation is needed! For those who don't get it no explanation will do!" To explain why he was so good is impossible. Here are some quotes, "I had always wanted to be like Elvis, to be a rock star but I couldn't, so I joined a mod band instead."-Roger Daltry of the Who.
"Before Elvis there was nothing"-The late John Lennon "No one, but no one, is equal, or ever will be. Elvis was and is supreme"-Mick Jaggar "The highlight of my career? Thats easy: Elvis recording one of my songs"-Bob Dylan "Elvis is my religion. If it was not for him I'd be selling encyclopedias"-Bruce Springsteen "He taught white America to get down"-James Brown "A lot of people have accused Elvis of stealing black music, when in fact, almost every black solo entertainer copied his stage mannerisms from Elvis-had always wanted to be Elvis."-The late Jackie Wilson "NONE of us could have made it without Elvis"-Buddy Holly

― Ken, Friday, 24 January 2003 15:05 (twenty-one years ago) link

A lot of that is hyperbole. Anyone who's interviewed more than 5 musicians know that they're not really qualified experts on ANYTHING.
While I don't dispute EP's greatness, if it hadn't been him, it woulda been someone else. In 54 the world was ready for a rock & roll star.
I would say Sam Phillips (despite all the gouging he did to his other talent) deserves equal credit for EP's impact on the world at large.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 24 January 2003 15:08 (twenty-one years ago) link

You're right most musicians are not qualified experts on most things, but in the case of music itself, and what makes it great, being that they create it and play it, and have their own level of expertise in the music industry it lends quite a bit of weight to what they say.
Sam Phillips was probably the greatest procurrer of talent in the history of rock-in-roll. But he has said on many occasions he never created the talent, he nurtured it.

― Ken, Friday, 24 January 2003 15:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

Well, yeah, EP was just another southern Mama's Boy until Sam Phillips started working him.
It should be noted that Phillips squandered Roy Orbison's talent though, but so did Chet Atkins.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 24 January 2003 15:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

''What artist today could go into the studio and in a couple of weeks cut over 30 songs as Elvis did at the Memphis sessions in 1970?''

this is a bit lame. there are plenty who could cut loads of songs in 30 days but the studio and what 'artists' do has changed. and its quality that counts anyway.

''They run his demise into the ground, search for dirt, print as much inuendo and trash as they can find. They never explore the fact that he had a 3 octave voice, and could virtually sing any style of music.''

could elvis do opera if he wanted to ken?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 24 January 2003 15:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

Mario Lanza was a favorite of EP. He had great respect for opera singers and as most know had "Its Now Or Never" written, based upon the Italian song "O Sole Mio". He used to fool around with opera when he was singing with friends. As his voice was not classically trained I would doubt he could have sung a whole part in an opera. He loved to listen to tenors.

― Ken, Friday, 24 January 2003 16:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

That was my point about recording artists today. It takes them forever to get the quality he (when he was serious) could get in a couple weeks of sessions. Sure anyone can record 30 songs quickly but can they produce quality hits and music in that time. Evidently not, or why would they be spending hundreds of thousands in some cases in production and studio time that stretches into years before album releases.

― Ken, Friday, 24 January 2003 16:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

That has more to do with the labels and shady contracts and cutting everybody's friends in on the cash cow. Jerry Lee Lewis cut both volumes of his Sings the Country Music Hall of Fame in about 30 hrs. It's not his best work, but it's great.
As an Artist, I would place JLL higher than EP, as a STAR, EP rules.

Mind you, it was his human weaknesses that did him in.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 24 January 2003 16:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

If you're into Elvis, you have to check http://www.girlsguidetoelvis.com
it's probably the freshest (and largely sympathetic) look at EP since the earth cooled.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 24 January 2003 16:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

Classic, without a doubt.

Would love to rant on about Elvis for ages but loads of work to do before I leave tonight so I'll just quote Andrew from way up thread:

"above all else he's a great singer, of all different kinds of material - country, r'n'b, rockabilly, gospel, soul, torch songs, etc. Contrary to all that 'creatively dead after leaving Army' bollocks, he made fine records at every point in his career"

― James Ball (James Ball), Friday, 24 January 2003 16:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

Make the World Go Away

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 24 January 2003 16:34 (twenty-one years ago) link

Jerry Lee Lewis is a great artist. I repect his never really having, for want of a better word, sold out. He is true to who JLL was and is. But does that make him a superior artist to Elvis? You could say JLL still plays the same, but is that growth as an artist? EP in the late 60's was trying to grow and be more than his image musically.
The reason EP did and tried so many styles of music was to get better at his craft. The more you learn, the better your voice becomes. JLL went ot London in early 70's and did a great double album, he should have done more like that.

― Ken, Friday, 24 January 2003 18:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

Oh yeah, JLL deserves to have a producer who cares.
But I think JLL was a better communicator, a better vocal stylist than EP. And no way did he just stay the same. His 50s 50s, 60s and 70s recording all showed tremendous growth as an artist. His later country ballads rival George Jones at his peak.

Sadly, Jerry Lee has had very bad management and frequent bad health for the last 15/20 years. His 95 or 96 album Young Blood was decent, but not what it could have been.

Plus, Elvis had many successful imitators, but Jerry Lee has none. Nobody dared. Partly this has to do with the expense and imcompatibility of travel intrinsic in being a piano man. But nobody has used the piano as the primary instrument ni Rock/Roll since JLL and Little Richard.
Elton John/Ben Folds/Billy Joel all play pop, not rock/roll.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 24 January 2003 18:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

JLL and EP had some things in common but chief among them was the fact that both were at times torn over playing rock-in-roll. JLL has at different times called it the devils music and felt he was doomed to hell for playing it and not strictly gospel. EP also felt he should only be doing gospel at times. As far as the gate incident according to Joe Esposito, Elvis's friend, the reason Elvis didn't want to let JLL into Graceland that night is because he came by without calling. The last time he had come by that way he sat at the piano and played country hits and did not want to leave. On the night of the gate incident he was drunk and pulled a gun demanding to be let in, then crashed his car into it. Elvis watched it on closed circuit tv from his room. Since Elvis and Jerry never seemed to get along all that well I doubt Elvis called him to save him. Jerry is lucky to be alive with the problems his health have given him. He has had a hard life with marriages, his sons death in 73, and the wifes death in the 80's. But JLL has had his own share of human weakness that hes lucky to be here.

― Ken, Friday, 24 January 2003 19:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

I think JLL has been through every single human weakness. Except goofiness.
That's one thing EP has over JLL, he was never played by Dennis Quaid (a fine actor, but not for that role).

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 24 January 2003 19:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

Ken: Louis Armstrong's "safe"? Has anyone else so dramatically altered the evolution of pop music? Take his singing alone. Listen to the way people sang on pop records before Armstrong's first recorded vocals in the mid-20s. It was a joke. He taught the world to swing, something we've been doing ever since. You can't do that being safe, and being in a tux with a white handkerchief doesn't change that.
I'd argue that he was one of the more subversive musical artists of the 20th century (and certainly the most important). And unlike Elvis, he was a genius.
And don't forget, Satchmo was so fed up with segregation in the 50s that he told the U.S. government to go to hell, while most other black performers like Sammy Davis Jr. ran for cover. Nothing "safe" about a black man talking like that in the 50s. He even fired his publicist after the latter tried to apologize for his remarks.

And as for JLL: Nobody cuts the Killer, baby, NOBODY!

― Jim M (jmcgaw), Friday, 24 January 2003 21:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

JLL once said about Elvis"I thought he was the greatest thing since Popcorn, he pushed the door open some, maybe I can kick it down"

― Ken, Friday, 24 January 2003 23:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

Louis Armstrong was a genius at playing Jazz and he was revolutionary in his lifestyle for the 30's and 40's. Being in my late 40's I recall him from TV in the 60's. Perhaps he seemed safe,at the time because of the format-TV. But its all a progression. The 50's were the beginnings of major change for black artists and EP played a part.

― Ken, Friday, 24 January 2003 23:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

Even if only truly King for a year, say, 1956...

Classic.

Plus now he's droppin' some lite techno! "A Little More Conversation" is what Bob Mould's new shit SHOULD sound like.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 24 January 2003 23:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

Next they oughta do an Elvis remix of "Fight The Power." (I have no idea how they would do this, but it should be done!!)

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Saturday, 25 January 2003 00:14 (twenty-one years ago) link

three months pass...

CLASSIC- except for "Old Shep" and "Wooden Heart".

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 15:33 (twenty years ago) link

"Old Shep" is great because, it being a sappy song about an old dog that has a deadly pace, it can be used to softly send a dear beloved pet to a final peace without actually using drugs.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 15:37 (twenty years ago) link

Search: Wilf Carter's version of "Old Shep"

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 15:38 (twenty years ago) link

"Wooden Heart" is music for us all to slap our leiderhosen-wrapped thighs to. Join me...

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 15:41 (twenty years ago) link

"While I don't dispute EP's greatness, if it hadn't been him, it woulda been someone else. In 54 the world was ready for a rock & roll star. I would say Sam Phillips (despite all the gouging he did to his other talent) deserves equal credit for EP's impact on the world at large."

The point about Sam Phillips is probably true, but I see no reason to think your first point is. If it wasn't Elvis it woulda been -- who?? Jerry Lee? He's great but he seriously doesn't have more than a fraction of Elvis' talent, let alone his ability to connect with such a broad swath of the population. That's the thing about Elvis: He really was unique. There's NO ONE else who could have done what he did in the mid-fifties.

― Burr (Burr), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 16:10 (twenty years ago) link

Who sung and looked as good as Elvis? I mean, c'mon.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 16:13 (twenty years ago) link

Ummmm, Ricky martin?

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 16:18 (twenty years ago) link

I finally saw the DVD of That's the Way it Is a few months back, and it's wonderful. The rehearsal footage is great, you see Elvis as just this laid back guy who still evinces a love of music. And then the performance footage from Vegas is completely captivating, he's still (1970) in great form.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 16:23 (twenty years ago) link

Did he show off any karate moves?

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 16:24 (twenty years ago) link

No, but he does make a point to kiss like every woman in the audience during a 10 minute version of "Love Me Tender"; it's so funny, the band sitting there vamping on that simple chord progression for eons while Elvis holds court and goes around kissing all these women.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 16:26 (twenty years ago) link

(He was still "the skinny Elvis")

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 16:30 (twenty years ago) link

I'd say classic (everything else would be pathetic to claim) but still terribly overrated.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 19:58 (twenty years ago) link

http://www.towntooter.com/elvisradiome/images/Item52karatestance.jpg

Wuh-huh I don' know whether tuh thank ya or hate ya Geir!

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 20:07 (twenty years ago) link

JL Lewis and Charlie Rich had as much "talent" as Elvis, I just don't think either one was quite as clueless about certain things that ensured EP's greater success. Cluelessness counts!

I find EP, even at his best, almost always lacking in some kind of telling detail/nuance/aesthetic distance, blah blah, that for me is necessary--his music just seems one-dimensional to me. Occas. it does not, but only seldom. There's something great about him but his "art" seems smug, involuted, airless...his presence is something else entirely, and he did have a good voice...I dunno, it just doesn't move me, I want to get real gone for a change but EP don't do it, not like the greatest man to ever record for Sun, Howlin' Wolf.

― Jess Hill (jesshill), Thursday, 8 May 2003 18:21 (twenty years ago) link

Mr. Diamond, I'm glad you liked "That's the Way it Is"... I like it too.

― Sean (Sean), Thursday, 8 May 2003 18:47 (twenty years ago) link

two months pass...

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:01 (twenty years ago) link

four months pass...

CD80 'portable' Elvis go!

interview snippet ("Rock and roll music, if you like it, if you feel it, you can't help but move to it. That's what happens to me. I can't help it.")
That's All Right
Mystery Train
Heartbreak Hotel
Blue Suede Shoes
Blue Moon
I Want You, I Need You, I Love You
Hound Dog
Don't Be Cruel
Love Me Tender
All Shook Up
Teddy Bear
Jailhouse Rock
Love Me
It's Now Or Never
Are You Lonesome Tonight
His Latest Flame
Can't Help Falling In Love
Return To Sender
Devil In Disguise
Viva Las Vegas
Guitar Man
In The Ghetto
Suspicious Minds
interview snippet (Elvis leaves for Germany "I am going away...")

(this one's only about 60 minutes long so I've got about 20 extra minutes for more stuff. Anybody want to finish it for me? Also, try to place any contributions chronologically)

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 00:12 (twenty years ago) link

"Little Sister" is one, Spencer

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 00:17 (twenty years ago) link

"Only The Strong Survive"!!!!

"Help Me Make It Through The Night" - token C&W choice

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 00:20 (twenty years ago) link

Skipping 989 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Thanks!

― The Ginger Bakersfield Sound (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 25 February 2024 20:13 (one month ago) link

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