101 reasons why punk sucks

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only what sells is venerated

velvet underground to thread

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:55 (7 years ago) Permalink

The VU "sold" Lou Reed, Andy Warhol, Goodyear tyres, sunglasses, the romantic junkie boho artist loft myth, records for current bands, etcetera, just not their own records.

Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:02 (7 years ago) Permalink

Thank you for your tedious, simplistic generalities about 3 decades of music made by countless diverse people all of the world, who as noted above, did not get together and have a meeting where they decided this is what "punk" will mean. Using the word "situationist" and mentioning Debord is not enough to make your theory coherent. As for your critique that it is all "boring" and "unsubtle," what do you like Scik?

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:16 (7 years ago) Permalink

Thank you for being kneejerkingly reactionary about it.

I'm not trying to start a discussion about punk, punkrock, hardcore, postpunk, etcetera, etcetera, as a loose genre of musics made around the world by disparite entities focused on a DIY aesthetic and loud guitars amongst other things, etcetera, etcetera, or whatever. I am talking about the notion of "punk" as adopted and expressed and used as a signifier by the mainstream (British, essentially, what with me being British) media.

On an aesthetic musical level I don't like what that usage of the term "punk" represents, whether it be The Sex Pistols or Green Day or Avril Lavigne. I do like, as mentioned, Talking Heads, Wire, Fugazi, blah blah. And I was also not positing a theory either; I was requesting theories, which we got.

Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:21 (7 years ago) Permalink

We did this already:

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=55719

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

YEAH!

the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

And this year, too! I think I thought that was in the Sandbox.

Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

Oh there's probably countless other threads doing exactly the same! This one is great though because it has been fun and stimulating TODAY!

Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

I just feel like talking about that one bit on Stay Hungry when David Byrne screams "I FEEL LIKE SITTING DOOOOOWWWWWWWWWNNNN!" now. Dunno why, except that it's brilliant.

the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:46 (7 years ago) Permalink

I meant "New Feeling" not "Stay Hungry"

the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:48 (7 years ago) Permalink

what was the last major pop-cult / counter cult movement? that pre 9/11 moment when post rock, no logo and actual riots seemed to, impressionable 17 years olds, all be part of the same thing?

acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:36 (7 years ago) Permalink

9/11 may have been the crux really. Suddenly everyone's like "Oh well, we're fucked now and we know we can''t do owt about it".

the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

9/11? What's that got to do with anything?

Tom D., Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:41 (7 years ago) Permalink

i'd say that the strokes were important on one level. i think post 9/11 a lot of the counter cultural energy was channeled into stop the war stuff but that never seemed cool, no "modern", "hip" bands really spoke out, it was 90s and 80s people who spoke out. remember jack white's "i'm just a musician" quote?

acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:49 (7 years ago) Permalink

Oh there's probably countless other threads doing exactly the same! This one is great though because it has been fun and stimulating TODAY!

-- Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:38 AM (52 minutes ago)


well then let's summarize how they all end up:

guy #1: punk is 3 chord idiocy, and doesn't deserve the props it gets
guy #2: punk is diverse look at bands x,y, and z
guy #1: band x is punk, but band y and z aren't
guy #2: yes they are
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: yes they are
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: yes they are
guy #1: no they're not
[image flood]

Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

(except for that beales thread, that thing is in a league of its own)

Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:52 (7 years ago) Permalink

a '101 reasons why Pink sucks' thread would be better.

blueski, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:53 (7 years ago) Permalink

who needs punk when you can listen to embrace?

artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:55 (7 years ago) Permalink

alternate ending

guy #1: punk is 3 chord idiocy, and doesn't deserve the props it gets
guy #2: punk is diverse look at bands x, y, and z
guy #1: band x is punk, but band y and z aren't
guy #2: yes they are
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: yes they are
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: paul edward wagemann
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: paul edward wagemann
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: PAUL EDWARD WAGEMANN

Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:56 (7 years ago) Permalink

9/11 may have been the crux really. Suddenly everyone's like "Oh well, we're fucked now and we know we can''t do owt about it".

-- the next grozart, Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:08 AM (16 minutes ago)

yeah before you mentioned this everyone had been forgeting about 9/11

artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:56 (7 years ago) Permalink

The real problem with our generation is not that rebellion has been co-opted, it's that we can't separate aesthetic-based rebellion from other kinds of rebellion so we fall for the bullshit line that all rebellion has been coopted. If I were to imbue capitalism with motives, I would say it WANTS you to feel like your rebellion has been coopted so you throw your hands up and join the party.

It's arguable that music, art, clothing etc. can never again be rebellious (though there will always be aesthetics popping up that are at least temporarily shocking). But one's ability to refuse, resist etc. can never be coopted, so long as one is willing to differentiate between resisting and being "cool."

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:05 (7 years ago) Permalink

However, grime.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

I mean the problem is that we can't let go of the idea that rebelling has something to do with the t-shirt you wear and the CDs you buy, that political resistance should come with fashion and sex-appeal. This was ALWAYS a capitalist idea, it just took a couple of decades for most people to realize it.

Meanwhile people are busy rebelling in all kinds of ways that have nothing to do with what body part they pierce.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

For example, the grime movement.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:09 (7 years ago) Permalink

i think the problem with our generation is there is no public forums to discuss our problems.

artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:11 (7 years ago) Permalink

Do I post that we're too busy talking shit about it online to be OUT RIOTING or is that predictable?

Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

Neil Fontaine, Terry Winters and The Mechanic to thread.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

If we take Punk as a category that gets filled in, it could be argued that the current mainstream embodiment of Punk is Emo. Is Emo a particularly rebellious form of music? Yes and no I suppose. It's rebellious because:

Parents don't understand it
There's a lot of self-loathing involved (self harm/anorexia)
The kids wear daft clothes

It's not rebellious because:

It hasn't really got a political agenda, unlike most other forms of Punk
At least they're beating themselves up and not the po-lice
The kids wear daft clothes, but this has to be the first time I've seen middle-class well brought up under 16s with lip-piercings, ear tubes, tattoos, expensive clothes and where their parents seem fine with all that.

the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:15 (7 years ago) Permalink

remember when the clash started that riot? they really changed things for the better. i think people weren't on the dole so much after that. or else more people were on the dole. which ever is good, i forget. they really changed the world though with their music.

artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:16 (7 years ago) Permalink

Hate to disillusion you, but the Clash never started any riots.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:17 (7 years ago) Permalink

uhhhhhh White Riot, hello???

Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

Who is artdamages and why is he trying to destroy this thread with the usual ILX-brand snarky sarcasm, which has thus far been absent?

Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:19 (7 years ago) Permalink

I think you'll find "White Riot" was the title of a song, rather than a riot, as such.

Coxhill, Creme or Tolhurst?

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:19 (7 years ago) Permalink

It hasn't really got a political agenda, unlike most other forms of Punk


Yea I remember the ska punk aktion of 97 mannnnn

JW, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:22 (7 years ago) Permalink

no the Clash actually had a riot in the studio when they recorded White Riot.

Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:24 (7 years ago) Permalink

who the fuck cares who i am. i don't have to have name recognition to post on ILM.

you started a thread about how you hate an entire genre because it is the most establishment and capitalist of all genres. was i supposed to take that seriously and do a thousand word post about how i disagree?

artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

most

who the fuck listened to ska-punk anyway. oh yeah, everyone who wasn't on ilx.

wasn't isn't

the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

the clash seem to have had quite an effect on (now) middle aged british trade unionists.

acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

i still think it's mean that the clash didn't invite the mekons to their riot

ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:28 (7 years ago) Permalink

when i was rioting in the streets where were you

Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:28 (7 years ago) Permalink

when i was eating steak and kidney pie where where you

Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:28 (7 years ago) Permalink

hey man there was no time to be considerate in 77

pretzel walrus, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:29 (7 years ago) Permalink

everyone, just Stay Free okay?

Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:29 (7 years ago) Permalink

who the fuck cares who i am. i don't have to have name recognition to post on ILM.

you started a thread about how you hate an entire genre because it is the most establishment and capitalist of all genres. was i supposed to take that seriously and do a thousand word post about how i disagree?


That's not what the thread's about if you've read any of it, and yes, I would much have preferred it if you had taken some time to put together some reasoned points rather than surfing in and acting like a total fucking prick in the midst of what has been a preety interesting discussion.

Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

sly stone really jumped the gun on that one, i mean he musta been hanging around rioting by himself for like six years before the clash even got there.

ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

And then Atari Teenage Riot turned up and were all "Huh?"

the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

That's not what the thread's about if you've read any of it, and yes, I would much have preferred it if you had taken some time to put together some reasoned points rather than surfing in and acting like a total fucking prick in the midst of what has been a preety interesting discussion.

-- Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:30 (7 minutes ago)

ok well i most of the thread and wasn't surprised to find it interesting at all.

i think genres and movements in art all have life cycles and don't find it particularly surprising that punk and old punks would become the establishment cuz they are old. i also don't understand what you mean when you say punk is or became capitalist. what else would it be? wasn't punk pretty entrepreneurial from the start? etc.

artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:43 (7 years ago) Permalink

see i can be literate. i tried.

artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

good posts in this thread, matt :)

flopson, Wednesday, 2 May 2012 17:48 (1 year ago) Permalink


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