ROLLING HIPSTER STUDIES 09

hey, at least it didn't say "a million tweets"

burning brightly in the night

waiting for the power point edition

this is an interesting strategy to win the youth demographic

http://jessemichaelsblog.tumblr.com/post/89178134860/white-guy-record-collection-and-cultural-materialism

an ilxor/facebook friend posted this and then i read it and tried to go back and facebook did the thing where it reorganizes the entire order of the feed and also reminds you to purchase something from Dollar Shave Club, so i'm sorry that i can't say exactly who posted about it.

so this is a lil tumblr post focusing in on that particular kind of social interaction where it feels like people are subtly (or not so subtly) competing to name cooler and more obscure bands than you are, and it pisses you off because you're not playing the same mindgames and maybe you just wanted to talk about a specific band in a genuine way.

1) The cultural materialism game ruins and devalues art. It takes what is good and worthwhile in a world that is overwhelmingly empty and vicious, and turns those songs, books, movies, whatevers, into poker chips for the big, nauseating ego struggle that most genuine art serves to oppose.

i sympathize with that argument, on the occasions that the other person(s) in the terrible conversation/game are doing the oneupsmanship thing on purpose. but then there's the following paragraph:

2) The cultural materialism game ruins and devalues social interactions. I simply don’t care about how much internet research somebody did on Detroit garage rarities / chopped and screwed hip hop / unknown Friedkin scripts / obscure British sketch comedy / little known hallucinogens / Fringey French Filosophers / African post punk / carnivorous plants that double as analgesics / Foucault / Derrida / Zizek / Huelbeckqxgfdm ETC ETC ETC. Again, I am NOT saying all those things are not interesting or shouldn’t be discussed. Of course they are all great things, especially Huelbeckqx˙∆˚∫. ˙ I am saying that when people converse by shoving savvy-objects in each others’ faces, it destroys any possibility of real, non-pressurized human interaction.

i get that he's offering a parody of the aforementioned oneupsmanshipping mindgamers by rattling off his own list of semi-obscure genres of note, but he's also (unintentionally, i think) demonstrating that some people casually rattle these things off simply because they KNOW about them and think they're relevant! there certainly exists a subset of total assholes who reference and speak on a very shallow level about certain things just to show that they know about them and are therefore cool, but there are also many
people who actually know about these things and find them relevant and bring them up in conversation because they feel like they're adding something useful into the conversation and possibly offering someone else a new artistic path to explore. hell, maybe that's how they found out about obscuro band x - through a conversation where someone mentioned it.

the infuriating thing about watching norms complain about hipsters is that they often conflate people who are being shallow douches with people who have a deep well of knowledge and aren't afraid to share it with others.

anyway, i actually like the linked post for the most part! i understand and sympathize with what he's saying, and since the people he's complaining about are friends of his, he's probably not making a mistake in attributing their conversational motivations to the desire to seem cool. it just points to a pet peeve of mine, this gut instinct of some people to roll their eyes at any reference that they deem to be "for show". if you talk to some people they seriously think that listening to radiohead makes you a hipster (or arcade fire). and then there are people that roll their eyes at anyone that doesn't wear running shoes on their days off who roll their eyes at the people who are rolling their eyes at the people who listen to radiohead, because they've never even heard of radiohead - "how pompous that this guy is standing here complaining about how someone else mentioned this band i've never heard of! god what a fucking hipster, this guy who doesn't wear running shoes on his days off". it's a terrible fucking spiral that just leads to lowest common denominator conversations where people are afraid to mention anything that others don't know of for fear of appearing to be a hipster. ugh, fuck that.

there was a lil' post on twitter yesterday (again i forgot who, i can't remember anything) where someone was saying that it's so fucking sad when someone starts speaking passionately about a subject in conversation and then stops themselves short and apologizes ("i'm sorry, i just get excited when i talk about X") and changes the subject, because it's a sign that at some point some fucking asshole criticized that person while they were talking about something they were really into, and now they've internalized the feeling that it's not cool to speak about things you really like to people who don't know about it. whoever said that on twitter, OTM

(sorry for rambling posts these days, i go through phases and currently i'm in the one where i can't stfu apparently)

I think a lot of music (or other thing) nerds actually enjoy that kind of interaction, and it seems to be the author who is made to feel anxious and pressured by it. I can relate to that, and I don't think he's entirely wrong, but I don't think that's the sole purpose of that kind of interaction either.

("i'm sorry, i just get excited when i talk about X")

...

(sorry for rambling posts these days,

<3

ugh, well i was going to add even MORE on to that ramble but stopped myself short (there is a line that must be drawn somewhere), but i was going to mention that the twitter thing touched a nerve with me because i have that same tendency (as demonstrated) and i hate it!

carnivorous plants that double as analgesics / Foucault / Derrida / Zizek / Huelbeckqxgfdm ETC ETC ETC.

What, no Adorno?

there was a lil' post on twitter yesterday (again i forgot who, i can't remember anything) where someone was saying that it's so fucking sad when someone starts speaking passionately about a subject in conversation and then stops themselves short and apologizes ("i'm sorry, i just get excited when i talk about X") and changes the subject, because it's a sign that at some point some fucking asshole criticized that person while they were talking about something they were really into, and now they've internalized the feeling that it's not cool to speak about things you really like to people who don't know about it. whoever said that on twitter, OTM

otm
also, i have been accused of "yammering" on multiple occasions, some of them formative i guess :(
i also learned not to offer info unless someone asks. which they rarely do so i walk around being quietly excited about stuff basically all the time

I think when people go into fits like that talking about records or books or games or restaurants it is an expression of anxiety/desire to prove oneself AND a genuine expression of enthusiasm. We do lots of things socially that have hidden meanings relating to inclusion/exclusion, status, approval/disapproval. I don't think there's any such thing as some kind of "pure human interaction" unadulturated by that kind of thing.

tend setting - http://nymag.com/guides/everything/ceramics-2014-6/

er, trend.

Last time I was at Brooklyn Flea it occurred to me that all this artisinal Brooklyn stuff is just a rehash of what our bobo parents did. The ceramics thing confirms that.

some people are just naturally more enthusiastic talkers than others, and people can find that annoying
some people also delight in finding things to dislike about others
like sand through the hourglass, so go the days of our lives

i genuinely know very few hipster ceramicists; the vast majority at any studio i've been to are grammas and housewives with like a 20% production potter (read: makes stuff for sale, primarily on etsy and generally the same general form over and over and over) and 5% fine artist bent. Hipster pottery studios are out there tho'; pretty sure Choplet fits the mold.

Yeah was also gonna say that that article seems very much in the mold of a NYTimes "no way this is as much of a thing as they say it is" article.

knowledge/taste can be used as a way of flaunting status or expertise, so i guess it can be a difficult area since peoples' identities are involved. which can be frustrating if you're the sort-of person who likes learning and experiencing as much as possible about lots of different things and likes to keep life fresh. some people get enjoyment from that, some people enjoy status/power more or are easily threatened, prefer a small stable world, take too much pride in what they know now, who knows. i've found that there are people out there who get seriously offended if you mention something they don't know about, and people who use their knowledge or interests as a social weapon.

but then there are people who are adventurous, curious, and put enjoying and exploring life at a higher priority. personally i like sharing all the things i've discovered, because i've appreciated the same from other people ... like when i was just getting into music growing up i learned about new worlds of music from other people. and i'm perfectly happy paying it forward, because it's fun sharing!!!, but i've found it makes some people feel seriously uncomfortable, like you're a messenger bringing the bad news.

i can sympathize with that a little. sometimes i'll feel stupid if i don't know what people are talking about, but i've swallowed my pride in those moments and discovered some of my favorite interests that way. my strategy now is to feel people out to see if they're open to that sort-of dialogue, and if not i'll keep my mouth shut because it's not really productive to focus on incompatible points in personality.

and like, in my weaker moments i've done what that blog dude criticizes. i think becoming mature is about letting go of ego/pride/insecurity in that way, but it can be tough because knowledge and taste is so ingrained as a marker of social status. so if you go after people for engaging in that activity, you can trace it back to our own culture. whole thing makes me want to read more bourdieu (oh no, did i do it???).

sometimes people are just into niche things and want to share them with their friends.
i'm really into fiddle jams from before 1934 and pretty much have NO ONE to talk about that with except a few other ppl who I barely ever see IRL.
the difference i think, is that when i try to talk to my friends abotu this stuff or play them records, they're not feeling insecure and slighted... just bored.

Jesse Michaels needs to set that to a rockin' ska-punk beat and sing it really fast.

i genuinely know very few hipster ceramicists; the vast majority at any studio i've been to are grammas and housewives with like a 20% production potter (read: makes stuff for sale, primarily on etsy and generally the same general form over and over and over) and 5% fine artist bent. Hipster pottery studios are out there tho'; pretty sure Choplet fits the mold.

My sister seriously burnt her hands year before last...because she took her pottery out of the kiln before it was cool! *rimshot*

A cursory search suggests the term "one-upmanship" dates to the early 20th century. Although in some cases "upmanship" is in the eye of the beholder: Am I attempting one-upmanship by talking enthusiastically about Poverty Row pre-code film, or is the person who doesn't find that subject so engrossing ascribing one-upmanship to me?

Sometimes it's less about establishing superiority and more about establishing that you're both part of the same nerdy fraternity (spent a minute deciding whether I should use that gendered word or not and decided to leave it alone)

when men do it it's one-upsmanship
when women do it it's yammering

lol

lol/sob

i just talk about things

or i don't

one-upsPERSONship

it's not about the intention of the speaker though -- one-upsmanship and yammering (like nagging) are in the eye of the beholder
that's why there is no way out of this sinkhole

I feel like stopping short and apologizing isn't necessarily an indicator that you're used to criticism -- sometimes it's due to the recognizing that you're dominating the conversation.

The people I've known who have been the best speakers have been able to introduce topics in a way that allows people without any knowledge get up to speed and those in the know aren't bored. It's really, really difficult! Pausing for the other person to indicate that they're interested is important.

I've definitely been part of conversations that were taken over by one-upmanship, chest-puffing through long drops of irrelevant info, or mansplaining. Definitely not limited to hipster interests.

knowledge and taste is so ingrained as a marker of social status

this is really a caricature of the hipster-as-geek, though!

there is no way an intern we had at work last summer was not yammering

he interrupted a trilingual person who was talking about a book she'd read on language learning to yammer on about what languages are hard to learn

Why does every conversation have to be aimed at allowing people without any knowledge to get up to speed?

it doesn't! gauging your audience is key.

mh otm
conversational skills are not a given part of language proficiency and because you are having a conversation with a human being and your goal is ostensibly not to alienate that person?

There are so many things that I would love to listen to people speak about, especially if they're enthusiastic and knowledgeable. At the very least, that's a good way to connect to people. But many people have absolutely no interest in hearing about arbitrary topics in depth, even if they introduced them.

I just think about the dudes who are occasionally at comic book stores. I like comics, although not necessarily the same ones they do, but I can't do anything with a conversation that is mostly talking about minutiae and one-upping by throwing in jokey references. I like nice stories and art and would like to talk to how I relate to that stuff.

There is a valid point somewhere in this article - that these kind of people and conversations are often pretty boring and oppressive to others. But making that into some critique of a supposed "cultural materialism game" is silly. You're not Guy Debord (someone please feel free to mention a couple of more obscure and cool theorists if you wanna play the game). This dude needs to find himself some non-dull pals.

the one-upsmanship (or, if you prefer "one-upspersonship") mindset is a major turn-off and killer of otherwise free & easy conversations/relationships. i think as a natural-born jokey smart-aleck that i sometimes unwittingly provoke others to go into a perverse competitive one-upsmanship mode when in fact i don't give a fuck about anything other than hearing things said that are hilarious. is this non-sequitirish? fine, i find non-sequitirial conversation funny also.

I'm not sure if I get the hostility vibe off of recommendations like this blogger, either. I mean, I'll occasionally say "yeah this album is cool!" about something that is related to the topic of conversation, but I don't get all emotionally invested in the supposed ~cultural transaction~ that's taking place. I might be invested in the emotional connection to the music, though.

I feel like that's a stereotypical male/nerd thing, though, where you can make a bullet-pointed list about how an album relates to other albums and how great the playing is and whatever else but your actual relationship to the art is obscured by all these things!

I'm just saying that sometimes the point isn't to "one-up" someone but to test the waters and see if the person you're talking to is someone you can geek out with

And also that the insecure reaction the blogger is describing is also often borne of unrealized competitiveness.

there are definitely different types of geeking-out conversations, a subtype of which is most certainly one-upping

bottom line --avoid conversations with these people!

no need to if that's something you like! I mean, get down with your bad self.

articles like this annoy me in general because it seems like the authors tend to do a lot of mind-reading of other people and tend to come to the conclusion that people don't do enough mind-reading in their day to day lives

I don't really get that article, is it about being a teenager?

oh i get it now, it's about people who listen vs people who just wait to talk.

lol hipsters

i dont even have a mind-reader

I'm just saying that sometimes the point isn't to "one-up" someone but to test the waters and see if the person you're talking to is someone you can geek out with

― Hier Komme Die Warum Jetzt (Hurting 2), Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:08 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm. honestly i don't have a ton of friends who geek out on the same stuff i do, so when i meet people and realize that they might have some similar interests it can be a good opportunity to connect w/ someone over it. i got super into bill callahan last year but really pretty much in a vacuum except for ILM and when i met a co-worker who loves callahan as much as i do it was pretty fucking awesome! i think we may have alienated another co-worker who approached us during a conversation about callahan b/c we didn't really stop talking about him. i kind of felt bad about it, but at the same time was i like, hey, i don't have anybody to talk about this except for this dude so i am going to take advantage of that.

also when i do meet people to talk about music or whatever with, i've rarely felt like they are trying to compete with me. i didn't really identify w/ the tumblr guy who wrote that.