Phil Linz? (Actually, I wish a had included Bouton as personal tribute.)
― clemenza, Wednesday, 9 April 2014 12:58 (ten years ago) link
I hate this thread for informing me that Cap is that high in WAR.
At least this will balm my soul:
http://news.upperplayground.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ef1a91002a05x426.jpg.jpg
― Call the Doctorb, the B is for Brownstein (Leee), Wednesday, 9 April 2014 19:51 (ten years ago) link
I might be inclined to look at this positionally. Jay Jaffe has Berra as the 6th greatest catcher, Jeter as the 12th greatest shortstop, and Rivera as the 2nd greatest reliever. (Behind Eckersley, but I think his JAWS number includes his years as a starter--if so, Rivera's #1.) So I don't know--the assumption now (for good reason) is that closers are pretty replaceable, but we know Rivera is an exception to the rule. Championships (adjusted for how much more difficult it is to win one now) I'd count as a wash, or at least would reduce Berra's advantage.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 9 April 2014 23:25 (ten years ago) link
Yogi Berra played a fair amount of outfield later in his career when Elston Howard came to the Yankees. If you look in the famous Mazeroski home run in the 1960 World Series it's hit to left field and you see Berra running up to the outfield in chase.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE1nYMg-jU4
― earlnash, Wednesday, 9 April 2014 23:33 (ten years ago) link
I'd be interested in seeing the math on which is harder: Berra's 10 World Series wins in an eight-team league (10 towards the end) with one round of playoffs, or Jeter/Rivera's five in a 14/15-team league with three rounds of playoffs. Pretty close would be my guess: twice as many wins, but only 2/3 as many teams and 1/3 as many playoff rounds.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 9 April 2014 23:58 (ten years ago) link
Yogi[ (1/10 + 1/9) * 0.5 ] ^ 10Cap/Mo[ (1/15 + 1/14 + 1/13) * 0.5 ^ 3 ] ^ 5
Cap/Mo[ (1/15 + 1/14 + 1/13) * 0.5 ^ 3 ] ^ 5
― Call the Doctorb, the B is for Brownstein (Leee), Thursday, 10 April 2014 00:09 (ten years ago) link
Shortcut:
http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/casey-stengel-hof.jpg
― clemenza, Thursday, 10 April 2014 02:41 (ten years ago) link
― clemenza, Wednesday, April 9, 2014 7:25 PM (Yesterday)
i'm kind of against this sort of analysis -- positional adjustments are included in the WAR calculations. it's certainly possible that WAR -- particularly as applied to players from several generations ago -- undervalues catchers, but we don't really have the ability to say that.
― surfbort memes get played out, totally (k3vin k.), Friday, 11 April 2014 02:34 (ten years ago) link
literal human genius dave cameron said the HOF benchmark for catchers should be like 45 WAR iirc so there's one vote for undervalues
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Friday, 11 April 2014 08:02 (ten years ago) link
dudes fucking destroy their entire knees by the age of 9 cut them some slack
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Friday, 11 April 2014 08:03 (ten years ago) link
(xpost) I know WAR adjusts for position, I'm just wondering if relative WAR when looking at a group of players who play that position matters. Rivera's JAWS calculation is 43.0, placing him 17.3 ahead of Lindy McDaniel in 12th (I'm eliminating Eckersley for the reason cited above). Berra's JAWS is 48.1, placing him 6.7 ahead of Mauer's 12th-place 41.4. Jeter's 56.9 is the 12th-greatest mark, so he's neutral. If you use career WAR instead of JAWS, the gaps would be comparable.
Does this matter in judging who's more valuable? I honestly don't know.
― clemenza, Friday, 11 April 2014 11:42 (ten years ago) link
I'm just looking at the batters, but it's interesting to check WAR/PA to see how the players with less years with the Yankees fared while they were with the club. Here's the top 40 (minimum 1000 PAs):
Name WAR/PA PABabe Ruth 0.0163 9197Lou Gehrig 0.0120 9660Mickey Mantle 0.0113 9909R Henderson 0.0109 2735Joe DiMaggio 0.0108 7671Charlie Keller 0.0101 4466Joe Gordon 0.0095 4216Alex Rodriguez 0.0087 5657Mike Stanley 0.0083 1604Brett Gardner 0.0080 2268Bill Dickey 0.0079 7060S Stirnweiss 0.0077 3800Yogi Berra 0.0076 8355Roger Maris 0.0076 3475Mike Gallego 0.0075 1023Gil McDougald 0.0074 5395Red Ruffing 0.0073 1589Tommy Henrich0.0071 5409George Selkirk 0.0071 3322Del Pratt 0.0070 1774Graig Nettles 0.0070 6248Thur. Munson 0.0069 5904Willie Randolph 0.0069 7464Tony Lazzeri 0.0069 7058Frank Baker 0.0068 2820Reggie Jackson 0.0067 2707Butch Wynegar 0.0067 1712C Granderson 0.0064 2148Ron Blomberg 0.0064 1324Robinson Cano 0.0064 5791Earle Combs 0.0063 6507Wade Boggs 0.0063 2600Ben Chapman 0.0063 4014Jorge Posada 0.0063 7150Oscar Gamble 0.0062 1707Bill Skowron 0.0062 4102Derek Jeter 0.0062 12005Jesse Barfield 0.0062 1525Phil Rizzuto 0.0062 6711Kid Elberfeld 0.0061 2743
― Karl Malone, Friday, 11 April 2014 13:18 (ten years ago) link
Neat. Not surprised Rickey's so high--he was peak-value during a couple of his Yankee seasons, and should have won MVP in '85 (146 runs in 143 games...him or Brett).
― clemenza, Friday, 11 April 2014 13:59 (ten years ago) link
Yogi is a legend in his own mind and ours. I would vote for Ol' Case if we were counting managers, possibly ahead of DiMag.
― images of war violence and historical smoking (Dr Morbius), Friday, 11 April 2014 14:26 (ten years ago) link
looking at this has schooled me on the fact that Charlie Keller was, for a while, really really good! His 7-year run from 1939-46 was outstanding (41 fWAR) and his mediocre numbers starting in 1947 appear to the be the result of injuries (ruptured disc in his back)
― Karl Malone, Friday, 11 April 2014 15:39 (ten years ago) link
I've narrowed my vote to Jeter or Rivera. Berra was obviously a great player, and I have nothing against him. But looking at the three MVPs, they seem to be a bit of a red herring. The first one, in '51, he had a good case: highest WAR among Yankees, tied for sixth among position players, and the leader, Williams...well, he wasn't going to win; he was 32, having a relatively normal year by his own standards, and the Red Sox finished 3rd (Williams finished 13th).
The other two are shakier. In '54, he's seventh among position players, but Mantle's ahead of him on the Yankees, and Avila, Williams, and Minoso are well ahead (Minoso, playing for a 94-60 team, almost three full games). In '55, he's ninth among position players at 4.5. Three Yankees are ahead of him. Kaline, at 8.3, is far ahead--the Tigers finished 5th that year, so if you hold that that matters, as I do (please, let's not get into another argument about that), I'll cut some slack there. But Mantle was at 9.5 (and somehow finished 5th). That has to be one of the largest gaps ever. If that vote happened today, and the writers talked about leadership and grittiness and all that other stuff as the rationale for their vote, I'm guessing Berra would become a target of scorn among sabermetricians in the way that Jeter is.
― clemenza, Saturday, 12 April 2014 22:21 (ten years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Tuesday, 15 April 2014 00:01 (ten years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― System, Wednesday, 16 April 2014 00:01 (ten years ago) link
lame
― k3vin k., Wednesday, 16 April 2014 00:07 (ten years ago) link
Who voted for Pettitte?!
― Call the Doctorb, the B is for Brownstein (Leee), Wednesday, 16 April 2014 00:11 (ten years ago) link
I voted for Jeter in the end. The disdain for him outside of New York will always be a bit of a mystery to me.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 16 April 2014 01:17 (ten years ago) link
Neyer talks to Jim Bouton about '64
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/story/world-series-1964-jim-bouton-yankees-interview-102414
― this horrible, rotten slog to rigor mortis (Dr Morbius), Friday, 24 October 2014 17:14 (nine years ago) link