Surely a great tune stays a great tune?
But when it is composed it is composed and it doesn't need to be recomposed.
It's better to compose a new tune in the exact same style, and chances are it may be a great tune too.
― Geir Hongro, Monday, 24 September 2007 12:25 (sixteen years ago) link
Geir is on his hobby horse here and shouldn't be encouraged (I kinda thought he'd grown past some of these ideas but I guess getting misty-eyed for britpop has reawakened the zealot in him), but I can't help myself: Geir between the sort of "theft? tribute!" melodic cribbing that Oasis does and sampling, I know the latter seems more creative to me. Oasis picks your pocket and tries to look innocent; hip hop folds your dollar a half-dozen times and hands in back to you in a shape you wouldn't have guessed at. Lifting a riff honestly and recontextualizing it = writing; aping a style or two as Oasis did = pastiche.
― J0hn D., Monday, 24 September 2007 12:30 (sixteen years ago) link
Pastiche is musical genius.
― Geir Hongro, Monday, 24 September 2007 12:32 (sixteen years ago) link
And a good tune shouldn't be changed or "shaped" it should be kept the way the composer intended it.
― Geir Hongro, Monday, 24 September 2007 12:33 (sixteen years ago) link
most composers, including Beethoven, Chopin, and all the romantics you claim to like, disagree strongly with you on this point, as the use of a theme by another composer is a time- and tradition-honored practice; the only constant is that one does not keep the melody "the way the composer intended it," as to do so would be pointless. That is to say: most composers would say your assertion there is nonsense.
― J0hn D., Monday, 24 September 2007 12:37 (sixteen years ago) link
ban geir
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 24 September 2007 12:41 (sixteen years ago) link
but Oasis used the stolen melodies in a real kind of interesting way by bolting them to a shoegaze / drone rock non dynamic tempered with the first wave of over compression made them more than whatever parts they were a sum of. maybe. i wrote a proper piece about this, but it's bad form to link yr own pieces on ilx isn't it. it's like oasis changed the form but not the content or something.
― acrobat, Monday, 24 September 2007 12:45 (sixteen years ago) link
BAN GEIR BAN GEIR BAN GEIR BAN GEIR BAN GEIR BAN GEIR BAN GEIR
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 24 September 2007 12:47 (sixteen years ago) link
i wrote a proper piece about this, but it's bad form to link yr own pieces on ilx isn't it
Let's hope no-one tries to do this on this thread
― DJ Mencap, Monday, 24 September 2007 12:52 (sixteen years ago) link
in all seriousness, ban geir
― Dom Passantino, Monday, 24 September 2007 12:54 (sixteen years ago) link
Wellllllll...
Oasis reduced the whole of the alternate/indie sector to "top ten hits, anything else isn't good enough" and all the inventive / quirky / etc bedrock disappeared.
― Mark G, Monday, 24 September 2007 12:55 (sixteen years ago) link
He's still only 34? Fuck me.
His age hasn't prevented him from still talking bollocks though, I notice.
― Ned Trifle II, Monday, 24 September 2007 12:56 (sixteen years ago) link
bang eir
― Pashmina, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:19 (sixteen years ago) link
http://i10.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/a4/91/6908_1_b.JPG
― Mark G, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:25 (sixteen years ago) link
It is strange how disagreeing with the typical ILM-opinion that "hip-hop rules, "white" music sucks" can stir so much emotion.
― Geir Hongro, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:35 (sixteen years ago) link
the typical ILM-opinion that "hip-hop rules, "white" music sucks"
yr evidences, let me see them
― Just got offed, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:37 (sixteen years ago) link
but Oasis used the stolen melodies
Oasis didn't steal melodies. They pastiched styles. Which is a lot better and actually a sign of musical genius.
― Geir Hongro, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:38 (sixteen years ago) link
Do you like Neil Innes?
― Mark G, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:38 (sixteen years ago) link
[It is strange how disagreeing with the typical ILM-opinion that "hip-hop rules, "white" music sucks" can stir so much emotion.
-- Geir Hongro, Monday, September 24, 2007 2:35 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link
no emotion here, chief.
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:39 (sixteen years ago) link
xpost (or, actually, better response = )
Talent Borrows, Genius Steals.
― Mark G, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:40 (sixteen years ago) link
Hip-hop and house/electronica was about to destroy music, and Britpop was needed to re-estalish the tune ass all that mattered again.
http://www.mediabistro.com/unbeige/original/shock.jpg
― tissp, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:44 (sixteen years ago) link
I take in then Geir that you have no response to the use of themes by other composers in classical music
kinda figured as much
― J0hn D., Monday, 24 September 2007 13:46 (sixteen years ago) link
i regret reviving this thread.
fucking geir.
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:48 (sixteen years ago) link
dude, such threads give oxygen to the fires of ignorance, bigotry and stupidity that ultimately consume all of geir's arguments, don't sweat it.
― stevie, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:52 (sixteen years ago) link
LOL, groundhog day.
― Pashmina, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:10 (sixteen years ago) link
The point in case here is the reviewer should never have reviewed that album at all. If the reviewer dislikes then entire idea of a bunch of white guys with guitars making old-fashioned tuneful music influenced by 60s and 70s music, then let someone else review them instead, and let this guy stick to his hip-hip or house instead. Those of us you like tuneful music aren't interested in the opinions of those who don't.
― Geir Hongro, Monday, 24 September 2007 19:19 (sixteen years ago) link
let this guy stick to his hip-hip
...hooray?
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 24 September 2007 19:21 (sixteen years ago) link
Geirhog Day
― Dom Passantino, Monday, 24 September 2007 19:25 (sixteen years ago) link
I like how Neil is getting it in the neck for dissing "a bunch of white guys with guitars making old-fashioned tuneful music influenced by 60s and 70s music" and also for liking Monster Magnet
― DJ Mencap, Monday, 24 September 2007 19:48 (sixteen years ago) link
no way, geir: half the fun of music reviewing is watching someone tear chunks out of an album they were always going to hate. and half the fun of writing reviews is finding new ways to hone yr invective. in fact: i'd argue that people should only review things they don't think they'll like. (well, okay: i wouldn't really. but i might in this instance.)
also, as i always like to point out at times like this: following the legendary 0/10 review of "hippopotamomus" in the NME, i rushed out to buy it.
― grimly fiendish, Monday, 24 September 2007 19:50 (sixteen years ago) link
The point about reading a review is finding out "Is it likely that I will like this album or not?". If the album is in a genre you don't like, then you skip the review and don't read it at all. And then, if the album is in a genre you like, then you expect the reviewer to like the same genre, and tell you whether this is a good album judging from that genre's set of quality criteria.
That is: Kula Shaker should have been judged by their tunes and their musicianship, not by their "originality", as none of their fans were looking for "original" or "groundbreaking" music anyway.
― Geir Hongro, Monday, 24 September 2007 19:59 (sixteen years ago) link
b-b-but ... if i had cloth ears and liked that kinda stuff, i'd still know from NK's review that i was just gonna love the patronising retro stylings of mid-90s kula shaker. just as i knew i'd love that momus album (and did).
that's why reviews are bylined: it's one person's view, not a publication's, and over time readers might or might not come to identify with -- or maybe loathe! -- certain writers.
also: i read reviews of all genres. that's one of the ways i started, er, listening to a lot of different music -- stuff i thought i'd hate. hellfire, it was reading a piece in (cough) "the word" that made me think, right, i'm going to give fuckin' dylan a try (qv thread somewhere else on new answers right now). seriously, dude, you should try it :/
― grimly fiendish, Monday, 24 September 2007 20:09 (sixteen years ago) link
et bloody cetera ad infinitum.
― Mark G, Monday, 24 September 2007 21:18 (sixteen years ago) link
b-b-but ... if i had cloth ears and liked that kinda stuff, i'd still know from NK's review that i was just gonna love the patronising retro stylings of mid-90s kula shaker.
Then you wouldn't know if they were good or bad, as that reviewer obviously would have slaughtered whoever tried the same thing, regardless of the quality of the songs.
For instance: Oasis and Stereophonics are doing virtually the same thing. But Oasis have written a bunch of truly magnificent melodies, while Stereophonics' melodies are mostly just crap, performed by a crap singer with an extremely annoying voice. That distinction will disappear in a review written by a reviewer who hates even the good stuff within that genre.
― Geir Hongro, Monday, 24 September 2007 21:21 (sixteen years ago) link
Does that mean that you can pretty much STFU about any and all music that isn't white-boy-melodies-r-us?
― onimo, Monday, 24 September 2007 22:36 (sixteen years ago) link
That distinction will disappear in a review written by a reviewer who hates even the good stuff within that genre
yes, absolutely: and i have been that reviewer. but then i'd far, far rather read someone monstering oasis/stereophonics/kula shaker/etc than i would listen to any of their music :)
i guess my point is that there's still journalistic validity in a completely biased review -- as long as it's entertaining and not just bile for the sake of it. (although, where kula shaker are concerned, i'd forgive anyone for bile for the sake of it.)
― grimly fiendish, Monday, 24 September 2007 22:49 (sixteen years ago) link
(reads this entire thread)
Yawn. ILX has gotten so boring lately.
― Mr. Snrub, Monday, 24 September 2007 23:00 (sixteen years ago) link
sign my petition to get a Geir Hongro quote into Bartlett's
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 01:40 (sixteen years ago) link
i guess my point is that there's still journalistic validity in a completely biased review -- as long as it's entertaining and not just bile for the sake of it.
If I wrote a really entertaining and very biased review, slaughtering an otherwise critically acclaimed hip-hop album because it didn't have any great newly composed tunes and had way too little melody and way too much rhythm, then it would be really great and useful? For hip-hop fans even?
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 09:57 (sixteen years ago) link
High time we made a stand and shook up The views of the common man DJ'ss the man we love the most Could you be, could you be squeaky clean And smash any hope of democracy? As the headline says youre free to choose Theres an egg on your face and mud on your shoes One of these days theyre gonna call it the blues
And anything is possible when your'e Sowing the seeds of love Anything is possible Sowing the seeds of love
I spy tears in their eyes They look to the skies for some kind Of divine intervention Food goes to waste! So nice to eat, so nice to taste Politician grannie with you r high ideals Have you no idea how the majority feels? So without love and a promised land Were fools to the rules of a government plan Kick out the style: bring back the jam
Anything is possible when...
Sowing the seeds The birds and the bees My girlfriend and me in love Feel the pain Talk about it If youre a worried man Then shout about it Open hearts Feel about it Open minds Think about it Everyone Read about it Everyone Scream about it! Everyone Everyone Everyone Read about it Read about it Read it in the books in the crannies And the nooks there are books to read
― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 09:58 (sixteen years ago) link
depends on your definition of 'entertaining' really.
To take your point slightly, what you really want in this situation is someone who can say "I really like white guitar based melodic poo, so understand me chillun, when I say that this Kula Shaker album is a pile of crap and even Cast are better"
sort of thing.. right?
(post certified sarcasm-free)
― Mark G, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 10:01 (sixteen years ago) link
Yes. (Except Cast isn't better) ;)
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 10:09 (sixteen years ago) link
How come you never see white guitar based melodic poo anymore
― DJ Mencap, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 10:17 (sixteen years ago) link
if it was entertaining then it would be entertaining. but i somehow doubt it would be.
― stevie, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 10:57 (sixteen years ago) link
oh come on, the work of geir hongro appearing in the national press would be entertainment enough surely.
― acrobat, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 11:08 (sixteen years ago) link
Remembering the horrible reign of the v similar Tom Cox as Guardian pop critic I can tell thee no.
― Raw Patrick, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 11:33 (sixteen years ago) link
Geir Hongro's Tribes Of Pop
― DJ Mencap, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 11:47 (sixteen years ago) link
If I wrote a really entertaining and very biased review ...
it might not be "great" or "useful", but if it was well-written and entertaining and made me laugh, or even get wildly angry, then yeah, job well done.
― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 14:50 (sixteen years ago) link
Geir Hongro, if all that matters is tune, why don't bands just play the lead melody one note at a time on a keyboard with no arrangement or production at all? Surely these indie bands you big up and love so much have a sound that adds to their appeal? For you anyway...
― max r, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 17:20 (sixteen years ago) link
Why would anyone listen to any of those Britpop acts when you could listen to any of the superior acts from the 60s and 70s that they ripped off? Pulp were pretty good, though.
― max r, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 20:43 (sixteen years ago) link
this wasn't a bad album really. cute in a way
― Badgers (dog latin), Thursday, 18 January 2018 16:05 (six years ago) link
Seems appropriate. RIP.
― piscesx, Tuesday, 23 January 2024 12:30 (two months ago) link