ILM Ballot Polls for 2014 and beyond -- order, timing, "I would have voted if I'd known about it," etc

I'd be happy if all non-eoy polls went on the conveyor belt, without exception. At the moment though, I don't think that the "rules" are as strict as that.

lol, "easily disproved". Thread for coordinating the order and timing of ILM ballot polls

In that thread: some people ask whether or not non-artist polls should be included, some people talk openly about not including them, some people claim a space for their non-artist polls. Not in that thread: an establishment of a community standard.

IF mods want to decide that this thread constitutes a rule that needs to be followed for all polls, THEN they should enforce that. However, until that happens, Nick and AG are not breaking any rules, and they shouldn't be pilloried.

If you don't want to contribute to a poll, don't contribute to a poll. It's quite simple. I barely ever contribute to any. I barely ever look at them. Thus I have no idea why people get so pissed off about them.

and.... what was the outcome of that conversation? a producers poll, a disco poll, a Stax poll, etc etc. How is this a problem with my reading comprehension?

Your comprehension is clearly poor as you still seem to think I'm denying the existence of those things when I'm very obviously noting them, and claiming that they don't make a rule, and that nowhere in these threads is a rule created to deal with them.

yep

rules aren't necessarily formally laid out on a board like this, but the absence of a Rule doesn't mean there isn't a rule; the process you're thrashing thru now is part of establishing that kinda rule? like the difference between laws and social conventions

^^^

I mean basically the problem is that this thread and its predecessor work on the assumption that too many polls at once is bad for all of them - people can't make ballots, can't find time to participate in the threads, it's a drag. BUT: an unscheduled poll may, based on its topic, be really appealing to lots of people who aren't necessarily following the order-and-timing thread. They are, like the people making ballots in the current Albums poll, stoked to participate. That wouldn't be a problem, except now, the next person to start a poll that is on the 'schedule' is put in a bind: Do I start this long-scheduled poll, at the risk that much of ILM will see it as the late-comer that's adding to a pile-on? "Crap, I would totally have made a classic rock ballot, that sounds awesome, but..." Or do I wait, even though a) I've been waiting my turn, b) we just waited out the EOY polls, and c) waiting is in turn holding up every other poll further down in the queue?

Unless there's a larger ILM consensus to stick with the ordered-and-timed schedule, then that schedule can always get derailed completely by an unscheduled (I'm trying to avoid saying "rogue") operator.

My feeling is that there has been something of an ILM consensus about the validity of the order-and-timing threads in the three years since they've been in use. It's possible of course that I'm overstating that, or reading too much into the success of the polls they've spawned. I do think the results of this system have met with much more public approval than the results of a hypothetical world where all of the last twenty polls had taken place the same month would have! We don't really have a moderation test case though - the rogue Madonna poll was locked, but because it was a swipe at a particular poster, not specifically because the O&T list was "law."

It might be that this current situation is sort of a once-in-a-blue-moon freak storm, just because both Classic Rock Canon and Favorite Albums Ever are kind of broad-base things that you expect lots of ILMers might get on board with - and have to split their time between. Whereas I'm not sure that's true of some artist vs. artist combos - but this is ILM, a place more likely than anywhere on the internet to have people who are fans of both Billy Joel and suicide metal or whatever.

ha i guess i did end up saying "rogue" but ykwim

the process you're thrashing thru now is part of establishing that kinda rule?

Yeah, I agree with this. A "crisis-point" happens and the reactions to it will establish what happens in the future. Which looks like it may well be all non-eoy polls... on the conveyor belt, without exception, and that will be fine. I just feel like there is an unfair reaction going on here, when this is more the establishing case than a rogue rule-breaker.

yeah this feels more like a test case than a shocking faux pas

firmly in the "starting a huge poll on your own is a dick move" camp, fuck that

It's not really the first time we've been over this, tbh - it's come up in reference to other polls with some of the same characters involved, but it played out on other threads and I wouldn't say that a final consensus was reached.

I won't be voting in the albums poll for all the above reasons, but if I'm honest I don't know if I would have anyway - I don't know as many albums as some folks and my ballot would probably be pretty corny/ignorant/naive.

obv compromise is slot all-time poll in the queue and nominations can continue until said time it's due to start.

I don't know as many albums as some folks and my ballot would probably be pretty corny/ignorant/naive.

This has never stopped me.

I'm planning on setting up a dozen socks, then all of us submitting ballots made up solely of Sgt Pepper, Blonde On Blonde, Blue, Nevermind, etc etc

in what way would that alter the results?

Why take the chance?

that's the spirit

i decided not to nom all the Nolans albums in the end, trying to keep it posi in 2014

i apologize if my 2 testy posts yesterday stirred the pot for this maybe kind of unnecessary clusterfuck. truth be told the classic rock poll will probably be sooner than later, i was just annoyed.

don't drive angry

http://www.43rdstateblues.com/images/dont-drive-angry.jpg

please do not add my request to the list thanks.

and some dude - no worries!

I regret airing out my problems with AG on this thread; AG, I apologize. My feelings don't rise to the level of hatred as you characterized them, but the difference is meaningless when I show my ass in public like that.

and some dude - no worries!

― ۩, Friday, February 14, 2014 7:06 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i wasn't apologizing to you, dingus

update: the all-time albums poll has been called off.

but, you have till Monday to vote in the Roxy Music/BF poll if you haven't yet done so.

the official word is that the all-time albums poll has been POSTPONED, not called off altogether as i initially put forward.

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/funny-gifs-want.gif

lol

Herman asked to limit conversation to the alltime poll thread but there's a couple issues raised here that I wanted to respond to:

I am not a major proponent of the all-time albums poll, but I feel like there's an underlying assumption in a lot of the attacks against it that 'all polls are created equal' that I think is at the very least wrong if not a little disingenuous. emil.y is completely correct when she says the queue was specifically put in place for artist ballot polls, which are an entirely different beast than wide-spanning genre polls. The artist polls usually take two weeks--one for voting/campaigning, one for rollout--and the ballots are basically pox thread posts. (In fact, artist polls really are just a giddy update on the whole pox thread template.) Anyways, the narrower field of nominations and the brevity of proceedings is what makes the queue feasible, because it means things are always moving forward. I know that there have been a lot of genre polls waiting their turn, but I mean, for one thing, there were other artist polls going on at the same time, moving the queue forward while the big ones were working through the nominations process and the campaigning process and allowing potential voters to explore the depth and breadth of the genre or record labels. Plus, at the risk of being egregiously presumptuous, my impression is that with polls like the disco poll or the Stax poll or the Motown poll, the pollmasters were people who had been toying with the idea for a poll but had been daunted by the task, whether because of time constraints or because of inexperience + the assumption that running a poll was an impossibly huge undertaking. But I hardly feel like if Tuomas or someone else had been gung ho and wanted to run a disco poll within the next couple months that people really would've been giving the poster that much flack. The truth of the matter is that there is room for two or three bigger polls in a year to run along side the artist poll queue. Like, what if some dude or Johnny Fever or whoever decides next year they want to do a 00s albums/tracks poll? Are they gonna have to wait til 2018 to do it then?

I think that Scik and Herman could have done a couple things differently, like acknowlegded this thread existed, brought up the idea with people here, seen if they could squeeze in, or at least maybe had taken stock of some dude's response and pushed it back a couple of months until the Classic Rock Canon (which is def a wider-spanning genre poll) had finished up (esp. since I know some dude was already a little leery of the content overlap from Herman's 70s rawk/weird poll). But this sort of back-of-the-line, sign-up sheet absolutism strikes me as a bit obtuse and threatens to kill some of the spontaneity that can make polls fun...

Plus, at the risk of being egregiously presumptuous, my impression is that with polls like the disco poll or the Stax poll or the Motown poll, the pollmasters were people who had been toying with the idea for a poll but had been daunted by the task, whether because of time constraints or because of inexperience + the assumption that running a poll was an impossibly huge undertaking

this sentence was supposed to continue on to say:

and that the sign up sheet format helped them to take the plunge by allowing them to just put one's name down to commit to doing it in a year or two's time.

(that is probably kind of presumptuous of me though, apologies)

I'm not that fussed about the albums poll - there's plenty of room for the occasional broad poll to run alongside artist polls imo, and at least the 'of all time' parameter makes sense. I might even vote in it.

But to have it just land, like you're not even aware of what's going on in this thread, seems really weird. In fact, do you even participate in other people's polls, or just your own? In which case, maybe not promote them like they're the only show in town?

I know you were joking about fake ballots n stuff but it wasn't helpful considering previous nastiness we have got in voting forms. It doesn't take much encouragement for some.

i think you're being a bit precious there dude. i don't think joking about being a dick has any influence on whether somebody feels like being a dick.

it also occurred to me in a way that the poll format here is a little self-defeating? why not start a thread where people laud 10 or 12 of their personal favourite albums, if this is about introducing others to new stuff? that way you mightn't have the overwhelmingly long listing process wherein nobody's really gonna be able to process all that stuff for months. just thinking out loud.

so has the Classic Rock Canon poll started?

no

LET THERE BE ROCK

may launch the noms thread on monday, if life and deadlines don't get in the way.

it also occurred to me in a way that the poll format here is a little self-defeating? why not start a thread where people laud 10 or 12 of their personal favourite albums

People hate list threads way more than polls. At least big polls bring (mostly) all the community together. Just look at the amount of people who nominated/still are. Who have never taken part in any of my polls before and many whom have probably not taken part in this thread either.

And IF all time poll is forced to get in the 3 year queue does that mean the half decade poll has to as well? No one has answered that yet.

nobody's "forcing" anybody to do anything, man. the community is establishing the etiquette for this stuff and you can follow it or not, as long as you understand that when you don't, people have opinions.

half decade poll would probably just come at the end of the half-decade just like year-end polls get done at the end of the year, usually the 'timely' stuff like that (or RIP polls for artists who just passed away) takes precedent.

so basically an all-time poll doesn't fit into this thread either then.

voting opens the day after Judgement Day

of course we'll already have God's top 100 by then

lol

Is he bigger than the Beatles though? His son wasn't apparently.

*Beatles disqualified for being bigger than my son

Icon that doesn't display on my cheap phone, I gotta say, I'd be more sympathetic to your poll position (ha) if it weren't for the tone you've struck on this thread, and moreso in the other thread, which can very easily be read as ''gosh, sorry all you lovely people who want to do this poll, but a bunch of meanies and don't want you to have that fun, so I'll be the bigger person and take my toys and go home so that the death panel can decide all our fates. Happy Nominating!'' It reads as this mutant form of passive aggression where somehow the community at large becomes responsible for your choice to not engage with the queue process.

Bringing in end-of-decade/EOY posts is a red herring - those kinds of things have always had precedence in the queue because they only make sense at certain times. It's not remotely clear why ''an all-time poll doesn't fit into this thread'' unless you believe the end of time (EOT) is nigh and that this is therefore the only appropriate time for this poll.

I put Classic Rock in the queue maybe two years ago, I think, and passed it on to some dude a year and a half ago when I started back to school. You could have put ''all albums'' in back then and we wouldn't be having any discussion at all, but what I get from you is the sense that the queue doesn't apply to you and that the polls it organizes don't interest you. If that's the case, just say that and spare us the disingenuous ''poor little ol' me'' posts.

The funny thing is that the queue system has actually given us more and better polls! As noted upthread, people are inspired to sign up partly by the cushion that it's a ways away - and are motivated to stick with the idea in a way that they might not have been before the system. It unquestionably has downsides, for example I think it puts on pressure to have a pretty fast rollout of results, which I think is tough both on poll-runners and readers. But it's so much better than a free for all. If you don't agree, please stake out an alternative.