The Led Zeppelin Plagiarism Compendium

tautological = disappears up its own butt

disappearing up your own butt = original

disappearing up someone else's butt = borrowing

what if it's a taut butt

they say that butts can be taut. but originality...

i honestly never knew what "tautological" meant but whenever i see it, it seems like a sign ilx is having some debate that's disappeared up its own butt

I don't know about other conversations where this word was pulled out, but I think it's perfectly appropriate here. Here's a helpful paragraph from the wikipedia page on tautology. It seems to perfectly describe the TS Eliot statement.

In rhetoric, a tautology is a series of statements that form an argument, whereby the statements are constructed in such a way that the truth of the proposition is guaranteed or that, by defining a dissimilar or synonymous term in terms of another, the truth of the proposition or explanation cannot be disputed. Consequently, the statement conveys no useful information regardless of its length or complexity making it unfalsifiable.

1) truth of the statement guaranteed? check.
2) words defined in a way that can't be disputed? check.
3) no useful information conveyed? check.
4) unfalsifiable? check.

That, my friends, is a tautology. It is an annoying aphorism that provides absolutely no insights whatsoever.

You are an annoying aphorism that provides absolutely no insights whatsoever

(i'm sorry for the tirade. It is one of these phrases that I've heard repeated so many times in bullshit circumstances that I just snapped)

You are an annoying aphorism that provides absolutely no insights whatsoever

nyah nyah!

this only works as a dismissal of eliot if we assume there is no other rubric by which we can assess the quality of an artist's output (hint: there probably is!)

"Basically I think it diminishes them as people that they didn't give co-writing credits in at least some of these cases. About 10% of them or so are really egregious cases of stealing, e.g. Dazed and Confused. At the same time, Jake Holmes's version kind of sucks compared to Led Zeppelin. So they're diminished as people but not as a kick ass band.

― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2)"

i think it diminishes them more as people that they were horrible human beings through most of the '70s, myself. fortunately for me when i listen to a record i very seldom stop to wonder what i think of the musicians as human beings.

Jesus christ, has anyone ever escaped the past unscathed? Any artist? Any anyone?

Just Tom Hanks.

*reads about the mud shark incident*

"NOT YOU TOO ZEP! NOT YOU TOOOOOO!!!!!"

josh: william butler yeats got out of lincoln park okay, at least.

in re the OP list -- so there's no plagiarism at all on Houses of the Holy?

"D'yer Mak'er" is a reggae rip-off of "Angel Baby" by Rosie & The Originals. (They even put "Whatever happened to Rosie & The Originals?" on the lyric sheet.)

And, of course, "The Crunge" is a James Brown pastiche.

And, of course, "The Crunge" is a James Brown pastiche.

It doesn't exactly steal from any specific James Brown tracks though, does it?

Can't think of any JB tracks in 5/8 time or whatever it is. Plant does namecheck a coupla Otis Redding song titles though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-27497950

this one seems particularly lazy. the music is just a basic groove - no huge rip there. just write some lyrics, robert.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaXA_Hr0CE8&feature=kp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvKGM93yoCI

Zep actually co-credited this one to Ritchie Valens' mother, who I believe was originally credited on "Ooh! My Head."

oh carry on then led zeppelin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0

Given that it's literally the only instance in their entire catalog of voluntarily giving co-credit, it's understandable that someone would think otherwise.

I thought "When the Levee Breaks" was co-credited to Memphis Minnie? It is on my LP.

Whoops, you're right, it is!

can't forget Charles Obscure

i'm kind of torn between thinking copyright laws should allow significantly more reuse and thinking that it's shitty to not give credit to artists you're borrowing from. complicated also by the historical power inequities that are at play when white artists steal from black artists.

what's the copyright situation in jamaica? listening to a lot of reggae recently and thinking about such a remix-heavy culture, with "version upon version" of tunes i can only imagine were not created w/ permission from copyright holders, if there were even clear owners to begin with

tealing from the (relatively) rich seems OK and sometimes laudable, stealing from the (relatively) poor feels wrong - but it can't work one way and not the other, can it?

Throwing Randy California's estate a bone seems like the right thing to do - but honestly don't know if he deserves a songwriting credit even though Page almost certainly ripped off Taurus a lil bit.

lol this thread. 2010 was a different time.

I think criticizing them for not crediting it is very reasonable. Criticizing them for not being "original" or something just seems totally ignorant of the entire history of music.

― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, February 10, 2014 2:59 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'll criticize you for being one of the biggest fucking idiots of all time. The toilet plunger plunged up your fucking afterbirth after your mother sat on it, but somehow you miraculously survived.

― Prince Kajuku (Bill Magill), Monday, February 10, 2014 3:03 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

say what you want about Bill but this is ace

what's the copyright situation in jamaica? listening to a lot of reggae recently and thinking about such a remix-heavy culture, with "version upon version" of tunes i can only imagine were not created w/ permission from copyright holders, if there were even clear owners to begin with

This is a p interesting subject actually. No sheet music industry/history! And thus no solid copyright precedents.

what's the copyright situation in jamaica?

Pretty much non-existent it would seem. Producers routinely took credit for writing songs.

Smiley Culture objected, but.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKlu3A3BBgE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWlc_D7k9yk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsnBT3NofiQ

I like the Stone Roses' "Second Coming" a lot, but "Tears" always puts me off due to its weirdly slavish imitation of the structure and arrangement of "Stairway"

Ok this list totally left off that they lifted "Immigrant Song" from The Osmonds' "Hold Her Tight."

Well that and the theme tune from Get Smart

holy shit how did i not notice that before

Heh I started this thread and it might seem like I hate LZ but I actually love them. They stole from so many artists (mainly Plant and Page) but Bonham and JPJ + production make otherwise thin songs sound massive. It's the credit thing I have an issue with, not the transformation of said songs into something epic.

"Immigrant Song" posts are jokes, I assume? I can't tell who's being serious anymore.

Uh no every time I hear it a few hours later I have Get Smart stuck in my head and it took me years to figure out why

Just in case: "Hold her tight" was 2 years after "Immigrant Song"

Anyway, "Immigrant Song" takes the nick from "Bali Ha'i" South Pacific. True.

Ha, well, it's totally the same rhythm and contour, but the intervals are different (iirc, "Immigrant Song" = up an octave, down a semitone, back up a semitone; "Get Smart" = up a P4, down a semitone, back up a semitone). So it's a cool observation and interesting connection but def not plagiarism. The Osmonds song obv came a couple years after "Immigrant Song". 2xp

Anyway, "Immigrant Song" takes the nick from "Bali Ha'i" South Pacific. True.

Indeed it does. I played that one in the pit only about 680 times, my brain clearly has no concept of where ideas actually come from.

Not plagiarism, but ye Gods does "Thank You" sound like the Small Faces.

Afterglow?

I wasn't thinking in term of an exact track, more of the overall feel of the Small Faces ca. 1968/69, Plant's vocal is very Steve Marriott in places - that verse after the guitar solo!

definitely. also, the hammond.

or whatever sort of organ it is.