Mia Farrow's son -- Ronan Seamus Farrow -- really creeps me out!

like you don't have to be evil to believe that spanking yr kid might be a good disciplinary strategy - you just have to be misguided. you have to be evil to touch your daughter's genitalia in a sexual manner and think that it's okay.

i have no idea how at this point that could be seen as improbable to the point of incomprehensibility and disbelief. how many cases do you need to know about?

hey lex w/ no due respect i don't think you understand what i wrote + also i think you're an idiot so let's just leave that there

i have no idea how at this point that could be seen as improbable to the point of incomprehensibility and disbelief. how many cases do you need to know about?

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 5 February 2014 17:06 (16 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

2nded.

and mordy, you've always struck me as infinitely more of an idiot.

that's lovely

maybe if one day you're a parent you'll understand why it's so horrific + unfathomable to imagine a father touching his daughter like that. it goes against every natural instinct to protect + love.

This is a cornerstone plot element in one of the most popular stories in the Bible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot_%28Bible%29#Lot_and_his_daughters

Clearly this is an idea that's been floating around in people's heads for years

Of course he knows that Mordy, fuckin hell.

sexual predators have certainly believed that they "loved" the children, or that the children "consented." Have you just like not read much about this?

tbf Lot's daughters seduced him, not vice-versa - also they thought the world had ended and that they needed to repopulate it

Lot's daughters seduced him

eh that's what they all say

most unfortunate use of "tbf" ever

they got him drunk + he passed out!

Dylan Farrow was adopted, absolutely not saying it should make a difference but maybe for Woody it did and for molesters in general it does (biological child v. adopted child)

I don't think the concept of people being or embodying evil is very helpful? Also it implies that there's a big divide between people who do bad things and ppl who don't, which...I mean? It might be comforting to think that around topics we find particularly horrifying but it's no good for any kind of analysis.

People who sexually abuse children tend to be, among other things, incredibly selfish and self-absorbed, narcissistic, unusually lacking in empathy, and generally capable of rationalizing everything they do as something they were "forced" into by cruel circumstances that made life too painful or hard for them. Unsurprisingly, these are the same types of people who tend to become other kinds of abusers as well--emotional, domestic/physical, sexual, etc.

otm

sexual predators have certainly believed that they "loved" the children, or that the children "consented." Have you just like not read much about this?

My first thought also.

maybe if one day you're a parent you'll understand why it's so horrific + unfathomable to imagine a father touching his daughter like that. it goes against every natural instinct to protect + love.

of course its horrific. but, you know, since my head isn't deep in the sand and I haven't lived an entirely sheltered existance and I live in this shitty world, it's entirely fathomable to me that awful people can become fathers and fathers can become awful people, and do awful awful fucking things.

also congrats on being offended on being called an idiot exact seconds after you called lex an idiot.

jesus, this toxic fucking thread...

I think there's a big divide between people who do this kind of bad thing and ppl who don't. That's been my experience. It's not like we all have the urge to molest our kids but some of us are better at suppressing it. (Just like it's not like all of us have the urge to rape, but some of us suppress it.) Some people have these urges (which is why we medicalize, or theologize, the acts) and some ppl do not.

lol @ that Woody interview upthread being cutoff by an add for Hebrew National hot dogs btw

xxxp

of course its horrific. but, you know, since my head isn't deep in the sand and I haven't lived an entirely sheltered existance and I live in this shitty world, it's entirely fathomable to me that awful people can become fathers and fathers can become awful people, and do awful awful fucking things.

OTMFM

strikes me that a pre-requisite for dealing with sexual abuse in a decent manner, as a society, is to come to terms with the fact that it happens, it happens a lot, and its perpetrators are not "evil" "monsters" but people who may seem normal and good and may even possess some artistic talent

I'm not saying that ppl who molest their kids have a giant M on their foreheads that helps you recognize them. Obv I recognize that lots of terrible ppl are good at hiding their terribleness. I'm just saying that personally that particular lacuna is challenging.

Well, they are "evil monsters." They're just good at hiding it. xp

tbf Lot's daughters seduced him, not vice-versa - also they thought the world had ended and that they needed to repopulate it

and before that he passed them over to a mob who wanted to rape the angels hiding in his house

the big takeaway from the parable IMO is that there was a time not even that long ago where the "natural instinct" you're describing functioned in a massively different way, making it seem a lot less like a natural instinct and more like a cultural one, if there's any point in making a distinction between the two

tbf Lot's daughters seduced him, not vice-versa - also they thought the world had ended and that they needed to repopulate it

lol this is literally what an abuser would say--it wasn't me, it was my daughters' inherent sexual nature, they're very...developed for their age, if you know what i mean. really it was doing them a favor since women are only fulfilled by having babies, what else was i supposed to do??

as a fellow parent I'm kind of on Mordy's side here

also lol @ Lot digression

in orbit, the girls were adult women who got their father drunk + then slept with him to try + repopulate the world. that's the narrative.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/02/why-young-sexual-assault-victims-tell-incoherent-stories/283613/#disqus_thread

― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Wednesday, February 5, 2014 11:33 AM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^^that piece is so fucking important. you'd think it would be obvious but it appears not. as a child you're perpetually second-guessing what your words or actions "should" be.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, February 5, 2014 11:37 AM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

just seconding this, it's a really good article. some good quotes:

Yet there is something inherently imbalanced about a child abuse case. The very secrecy that makes the truth “unknowable” is an instrument of the crime. With no witnesses or credible legal evidence, the “he said/she said” conundrum prevails. The assailant knows this, and he can use it to his advantage. As soon as children make allegations, they enter a world filled with adult concepts—ideas they themselves don’t entirely understand. In order to even tell their stories, they have to learn a new language, putting vague, undefined feelings into unfamiliar words. The whole drama plays out in a grown-up context, which means the grown-up always has the upper hand. Neutrality never even has a chance.

After I'd spoken with investigators and my parents, I am sure my account sounded just as rehearsed as Dylan Farrow. The story was mine, but the words were new to me. I had to internalize a context and vocabulary based on the way adults interacted with my story.

also you guys know the Lot story in the Bible is not told from Lot's POV right

Yeah I read the Old Testament like 3x before high school, I'm familiar w the story. I'm saying, the narrative bears more than a passing resemblance to the spin that male abusers, rapists, etc use to deflect blame.

Given the turn this conversation has taken, I'm posting this link here: http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/02/opinion/sutter-change-alaska-rape/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

i disagree w/ your reading of the narrative, in orbit, but fair enough. xp

i think the timing of this whole lot story is suspicious. like why are people raising it _now_?

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

there's definitely a rape going on here, but not the one you're suggesting

IMO the bible is written from the POV of fantastical stuff that never happened. So it doesn't matter that much. Daughters seducing their passed-out drunk dad is something that doesn't typically happen in the real world. Isn't part of the point of the pre-10-commandments OT to describe a more depraved and sinful world from which we were delivered by God's commandments?

i think the timing of this whole lot story is suspicious. like why are people raising it _now_?

― eric banana (s.clover), Wednesday, February 5, 2014 12:25 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

go on

here is some rope, please continue

Hurting you failed to allot him his usage of the word lot in that post

IMO the bible is written from the POV of fantastical stuff that never happened. So it doesn't matter that much.

this, a thousand times

now the pro-Woody Facebook team says Moses must know – he's a therapist!

Mia Farrow's son -- Ronan Seamus Farrow -- really creeps me out! [Started by Alex in NYC (vassifer) in May 2005, last updated 0 seconds ago by the "Weird Al" Yankovic of country music (stevie) on I Love Everything] 666 new answers

let's cut the bible shit out

i think the timing of this whole lot story is suspicious. like why are people raising it _now_?

― eric banana (s.clover), Wednesday, February 5, 2014 12:25 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

go on

― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Wednesday, February 5, 2014 12:26 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well i suspect awards season has something to do with it. but i'm not sure what awards Lot is up for. also maybe Job is getting his own show soon.

it sounds like he was deeply traumatized by that childhood incident where Mia farrow was away on a shopping trip

gotta be about tanking Gravity due to religious themes, imho

man: hey god, is it ok to fuck your kids?
god: no.
man: seriously? like, never?
god: no don't do that
man: but what if we are the last people alive?
god: dude no, what is with you.
man: what if we're the last people alive, and i'm wasted. super drunk.
god: no-- wait. weeeellll...

did Lot's daughters ever win best supporting actress

The Crying of Lot, 49 (Dir. J. Reitman, star. G. Clooney)