Mia Farrow's son -- Ronan Seamus Farrow -- really creeps me out!

'putting together an opinion based on what you can gather about it'

in this case, why? how about doing it with larger tragedies that actually affct all of us instead? this is EXACTLY why i never followed thwe OJ Simpson trial.

why - because it's essentially gossip, and gossip is how societies assert their norms. participating in that process can feel downright virtuous if you feel like you're contributing to where the boundaries are getting drawn.

i had a similar (to morbs) allen-centred upbringing. i knew all his books by HEART. watched his movies a zillion times. read his plays (maybe even tried to put one on?)

all of which makes me extra mad and let down :(

i'm almost as big of a fan of mia as i am of woody. people keep referring to him as being a great artist and nobody seems to be referring to her that way. but mia has turned in some incredible performances.

lex, what did you think of the Woody Allen 1992 CBS interview on the Fandor page i posted the other day?

Actually watched it after following the link. Surprised it isn't being shared more on FB, etc., as a way not to take his side but to present his defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mqyS36-n7U

Well, now there's this:
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20783306,00.html

yeah, was waiting for that shoe to drop

moses can fuck off imo

I can understand better now why people believed the "Mia made it up" version of the story at the time. The problem is that now you have adult Dylan averring it happened (with no obvious apparent motive to lie).

Moses sounds a little clueless about child molestation, particularly for a "family therapist." Even if he is correct that Mia drove wedges into their family, tried to make the kids hate their father, etc., that doesn't mean Dylan's story isn't true.

this is good
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/02/why-young-sexual-assault-victims-tell-incoherent-stories/283613/#disqus_thread

^^^^that piece is so fucking important. you'd think it would be obvious but it appears not. as a child you're perpetually second-guessing what your words or actions "should" be.

Shut up, Moses, white women are talking.

*straps seatbelt*

xp That's why I found it so bizarre when the Weide piece cited the fact that Farrow stopped the tape when Dylan "appeared not to be interested" as casting some kind of doubt on the story. Like it seemed so patently obvious to me that a 7 year old would have trouble telling the story on tape!

it also seems patently obvious that any kind of traumatic experience would have an effect on the memory but it only seems to be sexual assault cases where that's taken as proof that the victim is lying

the biggest tension in my ability to believe that woody allen did this is that despite knowing that parents abuse their children every day, the fact of a father hurting his child is so incomprehensible to me that i can only truly believe it when it's something as horrific + evil as lostprophets dude. woody allen doesn't seem on the face like a sociopathic force of evil. but maybe that's the lesson - that evil comes from ppl who don't necessarily seem evil. that even ppl w/ keen insight + hilarious jokes can still do things beyond the pale. like watching that woody allen video he's so reasonable that i can't help but wonder what other seemingly reasonable human beings in my life have done such condemnable things.

nb, i accept dylan's charges. i'm just going into the parts of my psychology that have not fully signed on.

the fact of a father hurting his child is so incomprehensible to me that i can only truly believe it when it's something as horrific + evil as lostprophets dude.

people used to smack their kids around as a matter of good parenting. like, for millenia they did this

sorry not trying to be churlish.

they still do it

well sure, and i was potched around as a kid. but that's more of a mistaken way to raise + discipline your children. kids do respond to smacks so on some level you might believe it works w/out recognizing the detrimental effects. no sane parent in history has ever mistakenly thought that sexually molesting their children was good for them.

like you don't have to be evil to believe that spanking yr kid might be a good disciplinary strategy - you just have to be misguided. you have to be evil to touch your daughter's genitalia in a sexual manner and think that it's okay.

i have no idea how at this point that could be seen as improbable to the point of incomprehensibility and disbelief. how many cases do you need to know about?

hey lex w/ no due respect i don't think you understand what i wrote + also i think you're an idiot so let's just leave that there

i have no idea how at this point that could be seen as improbable to the point of incomprehensibility and disbelief. how many cases do you need to know about?

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 5 February 2014 17:06 (16 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

2nded.

and mordy, you've always struck me as infinitely more of an idiot.

that's lovely

maybe if one day you're a parent you'll understand why it's so horrific + unfathomable to imagine a father touching his daughter like that. it goes against every natural instinct to protect + love.

This is a cornerstone plot element in one of the most popular stories in the Bible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot_%28Bible%29#Lot_and_his_daughters

Clearly this is an idea that's been floating around in people's heads for years

Of course he knows that Mordy, fuckin hell.

sexual predators have certainly believed that they "loved" the children, or that the children "consented." Have you just like not read much about this?

tbf Lot's daughters seduced him, not vice-versa - also they thought the world had ended and that they needed to repopulate it

Lot's daughters seduced him

eh that's what they all say

most unfortunate use of "tbf" ever

they got him drunk + he passed out!

Dylan Farrow was adopted, absolutely not saying it should make a difference but maybe for Woody it did and for molesters in general it does (biological child v. adopted child)

I don't think the concept of people being or embodying evil is very helpful? Also it implies that there's a big divide between people who do bad things and ppl who don't, which...I mean? It might be comforting to think that around topics we find particularly horrifying but it's no good for any kind of analysis.

People who sexually abuse children tend to be, among other things, incredibly selfish and self-absorbed, narcissistic, unusually lacking in empathy, and generally capable of rationalizing everything they do as something they were "forced" into by cruel circumstances that made life too painful or hard for them. Unsurprisingly, these are the same types of people who tend to become other kinds of abusers as well--emotional, domestic/physical, sexual, etc.

otm

sexual predators have certainly believed that they "loved" the children, or that the children "consented." Have you just like not read much about this?

My first thought also.

maybe if one day you're a parent you'll understand why it's so horrific + unfathomable to imagine a father touching his daughter like that. it goes against every natural instinct to protect + love.

of course its horrific. but, you know, since my head isn't deep in the sand and I haven't lived an entirely sheltered existance and I live in this shitty world, it's entirely fathomable to me that awful people can become fathers and fathers can become awful people, and do awful awful fucking things.

also congrats on being offended on being called an idiot exact seconds after you called lex an idiot.

jesus, this toxic fucking thread...

I think there's a big divide between people who do this kind of bad thing and ppl who don't. That's been my experience. It's not like we all have the urge to molest our kids but some of us are better at suppressing it. (Just like it's not like all of us have the urge to rape, but some of us suppress it.) Some people have these urges (which is why we medicalize, or theologize, the acts) and some ppl do not.

lol @ that Woody interview upthread being cutoff by an add for Hebrew National hot dogs btw

xxxp

of course its horrific. but, you know, since my head isn't deep in the sand and I haven't lived an entirely sheltered existance and I live in this shitty world, it's entirely fathomable to me that awful people can become fathers and fathers can become awful people, and do awful awful fucking things.

OTMFM

strikes me that a pre-requisite for dealing with sexual abuse in a decent manner, as a society, is to come to terms with the fact that it happens, it happens a lot, and its perpetrators are not "evil" "monsters" but people who may seem normal and good and may even possess some artistic talent

I'm not saying that ppl who molest their kids have a giant M on their foreheads that helps you recognize them. Obv I recognize that lots of terrible ppl are good at hiding their terribleness. I'm just saying that personally that particular lacuna is challenging.

Well, they are "evil monsters." They're just good at hiding it. xp

tbf Lot's daughters seduced him, not vice-versa - also they thought the world had ended and that they needed to repopulate it

and before that he passed them over to a mob who wanted to rape the angels hiding in his house

the big takeaway from the parable IMO is that there was a time not even that long ago where the "natural instinct" you're describing functioned in a massively different way, making it seem a lot less like a natural instinct and more like a cultural one, if there's any point in making a distinction between the two

tbf Lot's daughters seduced him, not vice-versa - also they thought the world had ended and that they needed to repopulate it

lol this is literally what an abuser would say--it wasn't me, it was my daughters' inherent sexual nature, they're very...developed for their age, if you know what i mean. really it was doing them a favor since women are only fulfilled by having babies, what else was i supposed to do??

as a fellow parent I'm kind of on Mordy's side here

also lol @ Lot digression

in orbit, the girls were adult women who got their father drunk + then slept with him to try + repopulate the world. that's the narrative.