Criminal justice in Europe is generally a disaster. Defense attorney culture was wiped out in WWII, and the inquisitorial legal system has become over the decades a rubber stamp for the State's Attorneys. This is not that big a deal where the SAs are professional and serious people -- but that will differ from province to province, let alone nation to nation -- and sentences are generally lighter than in the Anglo-American system, so that the unofficial but real tendency is to convict where there is any doubt in absolute innocence, because what's the harm? The harm is that the tendency towards heavier punishment is solidly on the march throughout Europe, and that common law countries have to figure out what to do with conviction from other nations they have treaties with that would never have been convictions in the common law country.
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 10:24 (ten years ago) link
Americans berating the legal system of other countries is a constant source of hilarity
― zonal snarking (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 13:31 (ten years ago) link
http://politicalblindspot.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/17.jpg"I know, right?"
― the "Weird Al" Yankovic of country music (stevie), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 14:26 (ten years ago) link
Yes, Yes, Florida's acquittal of George Zimmerman disqualifies all Americans from criticizing one of our citizens from being tried three times, and acquitted once, by a kangaroo court that allowed psychic testimony and already has the murder behind bars. We get it, blah blah blah blah
― Prince Kajuku (Bill Magill), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 15:34 (ten years ago) link
...the murderer behind bars...
dang, Bill pretty on point here
― mh, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 16:14 (ten years ago) link
i wasnae thinking of one trial tbh
any criticisms of the Kercher case - and i'm sure there are many valid ones - ought to be made from a standpoint that doesn't try to compare Italy's justice system with yr own morally corrupt, racist, murderous justice system tho. ours is reasonably morally corrupt and racist too tbf
― zonal snarking (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 16:23 (ten years ago) link
there's also a fair leap from "these trials have been conducted in such a way as to make any conviction completely unsafe" and "yay Knox is totally innocent no question", so to say "the murderer is behind bars" is a bit of a stretch
― zonal snarking (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 16:26 (ten years ago) link
well, there's innocence before the law and innocence in the sense of whether or not you did commit the crime
― mh, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 16:29 (ten years ago) link
"Americans berating the legal system of other countries is a constant source of hilarity"
So's your red nose, floppy shoes, and rainbow wig, you clown.
1. I haven't been an American for over a decade. 2. I spent a year on a Robert Bosch Fellowship studying comparative criminal law, including internships with a private defense attorney and at the German Justice Ministry, and was the negotiation team for the Germans in negotiations on an EU criminal law cooperation treaty. 3. I am specifically contrasting the civil law legal systems of continental Europe with common law systems such as the US, the UK, canada, etc. 4. In most of Europe, Zimmerman would never have been brought to trial, following a years'-long and terribly expensive "investigation". 5. Wannabe progressives who think criminal prosecutors are allies in the fight for justice are, consciously or unconsciously, white supremacist elitist dopes. 6. Your rainbow wig isn't actually that funny.
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 16:30 (ten years ago) link
again: i agree there are serious problems with the legal system in many European countries. to contrast the US and UK as models of "getting it right" is pretty fucken laughable to me
― zonal snarking (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 16:35 (ten years ago) link
Goody for you! Who's suggesting that?
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 16:37 (ten years ago) link
any criticisms of the Kercher case - and i'm sure there are many valid ones - ought to be made from a standpoint that doesn't try to compare Italy's justice system with yr own morally corrupt, racist, murderous justice system tho.
yeah I think everyone has just been pointing what is fucked up, not holding up anyone else's as an ideal
I mean unless you want to go on about the positives of the Italian justice system and how this is an amazing outlier and how it is better than other systems
― mh, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:00 (ten years ago) link
5. Wannabe progressives who think criminal prosecutors are allies in the fight for justice are
Who did you have in mind here?
― UK Cop Humour (Bananaman Begins), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:02 (ten years ago) link
If the clown shoe fits...
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:17 (ten years ago) link
ach, maybe we're all deliberately misreading each other's tone
maybe
― zonal snarking (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:19 (ten years ago) link
I do think a criminal justice system is best measured on the quality of its defense bar and have a personal bias that convicted innocents are worse than acquitted bad guys. That's really the only point where I would say the US system is the best in the world, which is sadly not the same thing as saying it's any good.
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:23 (ten years ago) link
But if you're guilty and want to confess, pretty much anywhere else but the US has a better criminal justice system.
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:24 (ten years ago) link
maybe instead of talking about the relative merits of western criminal justice systems, which is sort of boring, we could talk about whether we think sollecito and knox dun it or not (which could involve the criminal justice system, of course; there are many many ppl out there who think the justice system has been stacked in favour of knox and sollectio, fwiw, ibid the aforementioned kook-town sites with encyclopedic knowledge of the various justices assigned to the case and their supposed ties to the mafia)
the other thing i want to talk about is how sollecito has transformed over the years!! he started out as, in knox's words, "an italian harry potter" and looks like a kind of thick-necked iron-pumpin' good ol' boy
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:28 (ten years ago) link
i mean he NOW looks like a thick-necked iron-pumpin' good ol' boy. the change is remarkable
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:29 (ten years ago) link
honestly i'm happy to know next to nothing about this case
― goole, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:31 (ten years ago) link
Maybe Knox had a wildly differing image of Harry after reading the books.
― an enormous bolus of flatulence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:31 (ten years ago) link
for what it's worth TWU i also prefer a system that errs on the side of the defendant, and if i made my initial snipe after you posted that was mainly because i've read a lot lately that has a tone of condescencion to the Italians or fails to distinguish between an unsafe conviction and innocence
― zonal snarking (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:33 (ten years ago) link
and my half-reading of your comment was the trigger, i shd add
the details are SO CRAZY though goole. i just go down a rabbit hole with it. there is a crazy amount of physical evidence. DNA on a knife. a set of bloody footprints. a different bloody (bare) footprint in the bathroom. an unflushed shit in the toilet. a seemingly staged break-in. WHERE IS KALINDA WHEN YOU NEED HER.
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:34 (ten years ago) link
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01240/perugia2_1240580c.jpg
http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Video/__NEW/tdy_mor_sollecito_140131.standard.jpg
ha i had to google that name
xp
― goole, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:34 (ten years ago) link
xp -- Fair enough, NV, there is still bad feeling about the Zimmerman thread and my strawmanning thereon, so I came out aggressive.
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 17:44 (ten years ago) link
there was a guy who broke into the apartment and robbed them who pleaded guilty to murdering her. The evidence against him was, i think, stronger than against knox.
I thought Guede didn't plead guilty?
― Eats like Elvis, shits like De Niro (Tom D.), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 18:07 (ten years ago) link
I mean, I thought he'd admitted to being present when the murder was committed, not to the murder itself?
― Eats like Elvis, shits like De Niro (Tom D.), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 18:08 (ten years ago) link
tracer i get you, i love a good rabbit hole. but this whole thing just reads like nancy grace explaining a christopher nolan movie to me
― goole, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 18:19 (ten years ago) link
sorry to trivialize a real actual murder but all the world is text etc
― goole, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 18:20 (ten years ago) link
I tried to read the Wikipedia on this but could not understand any version of what supposedly happened.
― ryan, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 18:40 (ten years ago) link
Have you ever considered a role in the Italian judiciary?
― Eats like Elvis, shits like De Niro (Tom D.), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 18:42 (ten years ago) link
goole bringing his classic sense of wordplay, hats off to you, sir
― mh, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 18:56 (ten years ago) link
― ryan, Tuesday, February 4, 2014 1:40 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Eats like Elvis, shits like De Niro (Tom D.), Tuesday, February 4, 2014 1:42 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
He'd be overqualified.
― Prince Kajuku (Bill Magill), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 20:36 (ten years ago) link
hope to god three word username isn't going to law school
― Ramona and Yeezus (Matt P), Tuesday, 4 February 2014 20:39 (ten years ago) link
Drop dead, you hateful little weasel.
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 4 February 2014 20:42 (ten years ago) link
substance of TWU's posts otm
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 4 February 2014 23:36 (ten years ago) link
Am I seeing things?
http://cdn4.pitchfork.com/albums/20190/homepage_large.49b6343b.jpg
― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Thursday, 13 February 2014 10:57 (ten years ago) link
No, you're right
http://www.arenbergschouwburg.be/content/dam/arenberg/Agenda/Seizoen%2013%20-%2014/Nina-Persson.jpg
― StanM, Thursday, 13 February 2014 11:07 (ten years ago) link
this is good (UK only i'm afraid)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03wd39x
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 19 February 2014 13:28 (ten years ago) link
what's it doing on BBC3 then?
― the undersea world of jacques kernow (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 19 February 2014 13:33 (ten years ago) link
It's a programme for kidz obv.
― Eats like Elvis, shits like De Niro (Tom D.), Wednesday, 19 February 2014 13:36 (ten years ago) link
court says the murder was likely not result of sex game gone wrong, but of an attempt to bully and humiliate meredith kercher, possibly after knox had stolen her rent money
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 1 May 2014 08:11 (ten years ago) link
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/29/world/europe/italy-amanda-knox/
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 1 May 2014 08:16 (ten years ago) link
"There is nothing against me and nothing very strong against Amanda," Sollecito recently told CNN. "And in my case, I really did nothing wrong, and I don't want to pay for someone else's peculiar behavior."
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/26/world/europe/italy-knox-ex-boyfriend/?hpt=bosread
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 1 May 2014 08:21 (ten years ago) link
new vid from that night:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/may/06/amanda-knox-alibi-new-cctv-footage-video
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 8 May 2014 11:41 (ten years ago) link
The figure in the CCTV video has a very herky jerky walk, while the video of Amanda shows that she has a smooth, purposeful strut.
― how's life, Thursday, 8 May 2014 12:07 (ten years ago) link
Andrea Vogt@andreavogtBoth raffaelle Sollecito and #amandaknox convictions have been fully overturned. Cries of joy in courtroom from sollecito's family Rome, Lazio
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 28 March 2015 01:13 (nine years ago) link