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robin do you have any idea how offensive saying something like that to someone is? or how out of order it is to make sweeping judgements on MY politics when i have never spoken to you—i mean not so much as exchanged one single word, not even here. i resent this and i also really resent the fact that this thread started as a spin-off from some really dumb racist rant by tom artrocker and i open it to find you lumping me in the same bracket as him, simply because i dared to say that music often has a scene/culture attached to it, documenting people's lives and times, and this should therefore not be ignored. doesn't make me a hardline rightwinger does it, now really? it's actually people like you i'm referring to when i talk about certain elements of ilx/the blogosphere thinking they know the lot without *any* real-world experience to back up their profoundly misguided postulations. tell nick you think he's a wanker if you want, call me a jumped-up tosser, but please don't call people fascist elitists without knowing a little about them. the difference is that this is not just an opinion, it's an accusation - and one that really gets my back up.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Saturday, 24 January 2004 19:25 (twenty years ago) link

robin, i think you're missing the role of context in your comparisons

nick, claiming to understand their culture better than they do without having ever experienced it first hand

doesnt this tie into the recent relevancy and grime threads? While you didnt claim to do this, you did seem to dismiss the role of culture in those threads? the subjectivist position you took there, wouldnt that render the argument in italics invalid?

― Stringent (Stringent), Saturday, 24 January 2004 19:55 (twenty years ago) link

I certainly never meant to come across as dismissing the role of culture. It's a difficult position as I live in a semi-rual area that is very far removed from London, and though I work in the largest city in the area we're talking Exeter here, so a; it's not large at all and b; it's very, very different to any other large town/city I've spent time in in this country (Sheffield, Northampton, Birmingham, London, Manchester, Bristol, Blackpool even!). My involvement in the grime thread was very minimal, and I've deliberately said very little about Dizzee, say, anywhere, because literally all I have as reference is the music and what I read in papers/on blogs (I'm more than aware that I'd look like a complete twat if I were to start spouting off about Dizzee's relevence or whatever - the one thing I did do was report what my ex girlfriend's teenage brother (who's a huge hiphop fan but, again, at a massive remove from London or whereever) had said about Dizzee, which was that he thought he sucked, and I found this amusing when it was Simon Reynolds, middle class, 40-something, living in NYC, who'd brought Dizzee to my attention in the first place); and as we all know, you should never believe everything that you read. My extreme subjectivism on the 'relevence' thread is partly role playing, devil's advocate, to try and further the debate. Being at the remove I'm at, I almost cannot understand/comprehend social relevence in many of the terms it was being discussed in; my background, though far from affluent, is comfortable, and I work with (for, I guess, being support staff at a university) a lot of people who are extremely priviliged. The type of lower class that exists in Devon is radically different to that which you'd experience anywhere in London. I guess my role on the relevency thread was to say that for many people (i.e. me and my friends) music is a very subjective thing, almost disassociated with culture/society, and that this needn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Robin's accusations have upset me more than anything else I've come across on ILX that I can remember. His first reference to me (and Dom) on his blog blindsided me; I'd never read Robin's stuff before and wasn't really aware of who he was outside of an occasional poster here, so to suddenly find myself specifically mentioned by name as being a conservative, or whatever he was insinuating, was a shock, as I'm sure it was for Dom (who pointed out the initial reference to me) and Dave. To be equated with the BNP and therefore fascism when Robin has never, to my knowledge, communicated with me in any way, certainly never beyond the confines of a fucking internet messageboard, is something I can neither understand or countenance. I feel like I'm being demonised (by one person whom I do not know) and I have no idea what for. It's not just upsetting; it's offensive. Two of my best friends are black (I know that's an awful fucking faux-liberal cliché) - the guy who directed the film I was in last summer and the guy who's lived down the road from me since we were five and four years old and who's now doing a physics degree at the university where I work - and they'd be horrified if I was in any way associated with fascist politics; likewise the italian, irish, french, tunisian and french-african people I played football with on Thursday: a; they'd be disgusted to share a pitch with me if I was BNP and b; I'd be disgusted to share a pitch with them if I was.

I'm not some kind of class-warrior and I object to being categorised as such. Class isn't something I ever write about for Stylus and it only ever creeps in on my blog in reference to things other people have said about or to me.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Saturday, 24 January 2004 20:19 (twenty years ago) link

Carmody, it was me that Marcello referred to as being like a BNP member. I think that was just some polentone vs terrone ish though.

I would be interested to know why you seem insistent on picking a fight with people you only know through message boards? If you want a fight, you've got one, but yet I don't understand why.

would you also say a black broadcaster who played Elgar on Radio 3 should stick to his "own class heritage"?

Carmody, the only reason you'd approve of such an action is because it'd prove what you set out to argue in your original blog posting that started this whole sorry mess: namely, that the middle class are the idealised classes, the right classes. Said black broadcaster would be approved by you because he would acting in *your* culture. As you stated in your blog, the C2, C3, D, and E classes are just dress up.

You really are a fuck-up, though.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 24 January 2004 20:55 (twenty years ago) link

three years pass...

i thinks i get it now

― acrobat, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:13 (seventeen years ago) link

OMG this was THIS thread.

― Groke, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:17 (seventeen years ago) link

whole lotta history.

i don't think i read this at the time but there were a lot like it.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Uppity working class kids reprezent.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:30 (seventeen years ago) link

i accidently found it searching for the words "class" and "matter"...

― acrobat, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:35 (seventeen years ago) link

"I would be interested to know why you seem insistent on picking a fight with people you only know through message boards?"

Haha.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

esp. interesting since trife is MUCH more guilty of doing the kind of slanderous shit-talking that robin was accused of by nick southall -- but he gets away with it b/c some folks like him (for god unknown reasons).

― Eisbaer, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:38 (seventeen years ago) link

There's a difference between doing that on a thread where people can answer back and defend themselves and doing so on an entirely separate blog without any moderation or right-to-reply though.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Is this the thread where trife turns up to defend robin, and in doing so calls dom and stelfox medocre, shitty writers, or something?

I miss both Robin and Stelfox.

― Pashmina, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:43 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm STILL not a fascist.

As I recall, Carmody's beef with me was founded on my quoting Noel Gallagher's statement about how Chris Martin didn't "need to get into rock 'n' roll [to escape] because he could have had a very nice job as an accountant" and saying that Martin would probably be better at an office job than he is at being a pop star. I stand by that; he's a fucking rubbish pop star!

x-post - Eisbaer that may be the case (that IS the case) but Trife, to my knowledge, though he's slanderously shit-talked me, has only ever done it to me here, plus a; I have no idea who the fuck he is and b; his anonymity of username on this board means that about 75% of the time I don't realise who he is because I'm not around here often enough.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:45 (seventeen years ago) link

I miss both Robin and Stelfox.

same here.

There's a difference between doing that on a thread where people can answer back and defend themselves and doing so on an entirely separate blog without any moderation or right-to-reply though.

i agree -- though if one isn't participating in, or hasn't been alerted to, a thread where one is being slandered then the effect is similar.

― Eisbaer, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:46 (seventeen years ago) link

Also, what MattS said.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:48 (seventeen years ago) link

it's weird how short the thread was. these days it would be about 800 posts, and funnier.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:48 (seventeen years ago) link

assuredly not funnier

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:49 (seventeen years ago) link

http://noisydecentgraphics.typepad.com/design/images/hovis.jpg

Old ILX, yesterday

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:50 (seventeen years ago) link

i forgot to say it would be 80% zings at lex's expense.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:51 (seventeen years ago) link

The thing that really beefs me with Carmody is that he occasionally still does mention me and Dom by name on his blog or wherever, FOUR YEARS LATER. I've emailed him about this and never got a reply. He wont communicate to try and resolve things but he will occasionally use my name in a very negative sense; it may be infrequent but I've got paid work as a writer from a national newspaper and other publications; he's slandering me (or is it libel when written?) with no basis and on a professional level this is a concern. Admittedly I would guess that bugger-all people know who he is or read his blog, but it's the principle of the thing.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:51 (seventeen years ago) link

bucketofwater.jpg

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:53 (seventeen years ago) link

i agree w/ you 100%, nick. i don't know how to answer your concerns -- though if robin's comments haven't harmed you professionally yet, there may not be much that you CAN do. (i'm not familiar with british defamation laws, other than that they are stricter than they are over here in america.)

― Eisbaer, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Maybe he's waiting for you to apologise for Sharpeville first, Nick.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Quit guy: I think it was locked.

― Groke, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:57 (seventeen years ago) link

wtf re; Sharpeville?

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:57 (seventeen years ago) link

JOKE! (Re: ludicrousness of BNP comment)

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Hahaha, yes, I just about saw the funny side when Wikipedia opened.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:58 (seventeen years ago) link

I fell out with Robin some time ago for reasons which need not be of concern here but nearly everyone here including myself has done as bad or worse so let's all calm down.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:59 (seventeen years ago) link

southall: agreed carmody's behaviour is odd and maybe hurtful but... that noelly g quote is so loaded, it's not just saying chris martin is a crap pop star is it? check out his later comments about bloc party and kele o's very otm response in this months uncut. i'll try and find the quote.

― acrobat, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:17 (seventeen years ago) link

Kele Okereke has retorted back to Oasis' Liam Gallagher's jibes that Bloc Party look like a 'University Challenge team' by labelling them 'stupid Luddites.'

In an interview with Ben Marshall in this month's Uncut magazine, Okereke says: "Why is it bad to look like you might have been to university? why is it bad to better yourself? It's all about the weird way in which this country chooses to view the working clases. It really is daft to reinforce the idea that there is something cool about being dumb.

When asked if Oasis deserved to win the BRIT Award for 'Outstanding Contribution To Music,' Okereke replies:
"Absolutely not. I think Oasis are the most overrated and pernicious band of all time. They have had a totally negative and dangerous impact upon the state of British music. They have made stupidity hip. They claim to be inspired by The Beatles but - and this so saddens me - they have failed to grasp that The Beatles were about constant change and evolution. Oasis are repetitive luddites."

We await Liam's response...

― acrobat, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Absolutely not. I think Oasis are the most overrated and pernicious band of all time. They have had a totally negative and dangerous impact upon the state of British music

KELE OKEREKE FULLY OTM

he should carry on saying things like this, instead of 'singing'

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:21 (seventeen years ago) link

I can go along with that. Shame BP made such a shitty second record by bowing to trends set by Oasis (on a sonic level).

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:22 (seventeen years ago) link

"dangerous?"

i hate bloc party.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Kele's mostly right. I take issue with "better yourself". But he's responding to the stupid twat when the only answer to the question should've been "Noel who?"

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Kele's one of the few people to have written worse lyrics than Noel though and I actually *like* Bloc Party.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Confusing Noel and Liam, whether intentional or not, is disingenious.

The difference between Martin and Okereke is that Martin has no pretention (in his music) of being intelligent or educated; for someone with a degree he writes embarassingly imbecilic and platitudinous lyrics. He has precious little concept of innovation in music. Okereke may be fucking it up, but at least he's trying to push things. Coldplay are closer to Oasis than they are to Bloc Party. And Bloc Party are (now) closer to Coldplay than they ought to be.

x-post - Kele's lyrics can be terrible, granted, but at least, again, he's TRYING. Martin's lyrics are abominable empty-headed nothings.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:29 (seventeen years ago) link

oasis do shitty stock 'good times' indie, bloc party do shitty stock 'arty' indie.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:30 (seventeen years ago) link

(I wasn't being disingenous, I just misread the original post)

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:35 (seventeen years ago) link

chris martin's lyrics are the best of the three! they're not, like, good or anything, but i don't see anything particularly wrong in vague, generalist, not especially profound clichés which allow the listener to map their own experiences on to the song - you can see exactly how people might find a coldplay song personally resonant. i don't but there are parallels with how i listen to, i dunno, someone like alicia keys, whose lyrics follow much the same form (but she does it much much better).

gallagher/okereke lyrics are really ghastly, one for trying too hard, the other for not trying at all. nevertheless okereke is right here.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:36 (seventeen years ago) link

i think pushing kele o as some kind of innovator or even "arty" is pushing it but for all his faults the reason bloc party do seem to connect strongly with a lot of people is teh emos. i.e. they are the band that'll save your life for some kids, but then so are coldplay. nick sure you can hate on coldplay but denying that boneheaded platitudes can't be taken to the heart seems wrong. coldplay are a band seemingly designed for the listener to write their own meanings upon. bloc party are just slightly more targeted. i think in a political sense thou chris martin is bad thou, he seems to do that "i'll back who ever 'll get the job done" geldof style "pragmatism" which i feel will lead us, as it seeps into the wider culture, into a cameron government.

― acrobat, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Cute little brit indie bands might be conservative musically but do you really consider them conservative politically? Are they not classic late-capitalism liberals to a tee?

― frankie driscoll, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:44 (seventeen years ago) link

i think in a political sense thou chris martin is bad thou, he seems to do that "i'll back who ever 'll get the job done" geldof style "pragmatism" which i feel will lead us, as it seeps into the wider culture, into a cameron government.

-- acrobat, Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:39 PM (6 minutes ago)

bit of a leap from one thing to another! also blair's catchphrase is "what works" in re pfi etc. so martin could go either way.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:48 (seventeen years ago) link

i mean your perceived sense of martin's politics will somehow seep into the voting choices of the people out there -- really? i doubt even a lennon could have that effect.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:49 (seventeen years ago) link

And why is conservatism in music so bad? Anti-conservatism is the preserve of the individual..and the fragmentation of society

Conservatism in music can be a good thing..without conservatism you would have no genres, no continuity, no shared culture, no framework, no community, no belonging

― frankie driscoll, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:49 (seventeen years ago) link

in britain conservatism means destroying communities in favour of the atomized individual. most conservatives are too stupidd to realize this.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:51 (seventeen years ago) link

The difference between Martin and Okereke is that Martin has no pretention (in his music) of being intelligent or educated; for someone with a degree he writes embarassingly imbecilic and platitudinous lyrics. He has precious little concept of innovation in music.

But, Nick, how do you judge intentions? For all we know Chris Martin thinks he's writing The Waste Land.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:51 (seventeen years ago) link

i think the lex is right re. martin. he does what he does and as a non-fan of all three bands, coldplay's lyrics are less grating -- simply because they're barely there at all -- than bloc party's or oasis's.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:56 (seventeen years ago) link

If he does, Alfred, then he's a complete and utter moron.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:26 (seventeen years ago) link

I'd posit that Martin's enunciation makes his vocals and thus his lyrics too prominant for me to ignore. Okereke's on the new BP album, too. With Liam (and Noel) these days I am so astonished that either of them bothers to sing at all when they each honk like a throat-cancer victim with asthma that I don't notice the lyrics. Also I just don't fucking listen to their turgid unmusical shite anymore.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Skipping 210 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Obviously a lot of conservative people like "conservative" music, just as a lot of radicals like "conservative" music as well. And the other way round too.

― Hongroe (Geir Hongro), Saturday, 16 July 2011 07:34 (twelve years ago) link

Suggest Ban Permalink

MIranda Lambert and Blake Shelton

― The Edge of Gloryhole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, July 15, 2011 2:24 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark

Is he for real liberal though? I just checked out one of his records from the library and it had some dumb line about "rebel flag flying" that didn't sound too apologetic about it. What's his deal, really?

― grit of ad hominem (kkvgz), Friday, 22 July 2011 23:20 (twelve years ago) link

Hollywood lol. Isn't it Hollywood career suicide to come out too early?

― owenf, Friday, 22 July 2011 23:48 (twelve years ago) link

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