Mia Farrow's son -- Ronan Seamus Farrow -- really creeps me out!

A friend of a friend, once I told him what I was trying to accomplish by being at the Aero, didn't actively tell me to shove it. Instead, he gave me the brush-off I knew so well. "By that rationale," he argued, "you could write off Picasso and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle."

?

yeah me neither

Maybe he meant Gauguin and Lewis Carroll.

i just assume all my favorite artists are married to their daughters

― lag∞n, Monday, January 13, 2014 11:09 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a good joke but honestly i kinda feel like, you could just go through history and tell me any revered figure did things 10 times worse than anything being discussed itt and i'd be like 'okay, that's plausible.' Picasso? sure, why not! do we have any dirt on Einstein? that's not to dismiss the charges against Woody Allen, but like... how i feel about someone's intellectual or artistic contributions is not contingent on being absolutely sure they were a good person, so why would it be shattered by the knowledge that they're definitely a bad person?

i don't even know how much i even love Woody's work though, tbh, obviously some of it is great but if i never got to see any of it again i dunno how heartbroken i'd be, there's other movies.

Einstein was apparently a notorious seducer of married women, but that's not even in the same galaxy as what's being discussed here. And yeah, I'm wary of seeing both the artist and their art as the same product. I was very fond of Allen's 70s and 80s work as a teenager and my admiration for those films remain. Perhaps it's nostalgia, but I'm not going to throw my regard for them away, even though I would never, ever want to associate with the man and am v. disgusted at what he has (probably) done.

Einstein, you old dog! i knew you had a little mischief in you!

feel like the appeal to history is irrelevant, this is what progress is about and the fact that lauded cultural figures were not held to account for abusive behaviour 100 years ago doesn't mean we should overlook it in 2014. often there's a sort of subtext about the myth of a great artist living ~outside social boundaries which is basically bollocks that no one should put up with - great art is not contingent on abusive behaviour, seriously. plus often you get this elision of the nebulous "being a bad person" with "being a violent abuser or paedophile" - indeed have actually seen people defending woody allen and saying scorn should be reserved for the likes of justin bieber. uhhhh bieber seems like a little brat but that is a world away from being a paedophilic abuser.

also annoying to see people act like being asked to think about their reactions and sort through their feelings vis-à-vis the art and the artist is some sort of imposition. sorting through these complex feelings is exactly what we should be doing. the outrage, i guess, comes with public honouring and praise, not personal reaction.

it's not that he's a 'bad' or 'good' person (this line of thought is reminiscent of the useless discussion of whether michael richards is 'a racist' or merely 'said something racist once')

it's that he took advantage of defenseless members of his own family for his own sexual gratification, once apparently with a 7-year-old and again with the developmentally and socially disturbed daughter of a woman who stove her head against a door and then abandoned her

my own personal reaction about his art is that i'm happy to watch everything up until the abuse starts, and anything past that skeeves me out. (conveniently that's when it all went to shit)

yeah, being petulant or a jerk isn't even on the same continuum with being a pedophile; the former doesn't really even matter.

otm. violence and sexual abuse (a subset of violence imo) cross some sort of special line for me. everyone has dirty hands but that kinda thing expels you from the brotherhood of man/woman.

and really WA is not exactly a Picasso or Einstein.

while many people (including myself) have used the "i assume all great artists are horrible monster people who marry their daughters" line when discussing how bad people can make good art, I can't actually think of anyone I've ever met who, when discussing an artist whose work they enjoy, sounds like they assume they're a horrible monster person who married their daughter. Like, no one really couches their praise and avoids heroic language as if they're actively prepared for that possibility.

it's really not that different from saying "I don't care if you're black, white, purple"

Einstein, you old dog! i knew you had a little mischief in you!

Well, it's all relative.

This is from the comments section of that Vanity Fair article:

1. Soon-Yi was 21 when Farrow discovered nude photos of her - not 16. (Had she been 16 Allen would have committed a crime, and we can assume New York's finest would have enjoyed taking him on a perp walk). It was at that time she discovered Allen was having an affair with Soon-Yi. The child abuse accusations followed this event. This is important because (assume you are on a jury and take serious your jury instructions) you have to at least consider whether Mia Farrow was inventing the incident as revenge or as leverage in getting full custody of her children with Allen.

2. The judge overseeing the case concluded the sex abuse allegations were inconclusive. Unless you are a conspiracy nut, you have to allow that the judge was probably conscientious and offered an unbiased decision. Note, he didn't say Allen was innocent - he said the allegations were inconclusive.

3. Anyone who has taken the time to educate themselves about the McMartin Preschool Case and other child molestation hysteria cases from the 1980s and 1990s knows that the testimony of children, when coached by adults, is completely unreliable. (And please, no one accuse me of being dismissive of the very serious problem of child sex abuse. I've seen up close and personal the scars it leaves and the Hell it can create for victims). Research into false memory syndrome is decades old now, and it demonstrates that false memories can be planted, and once planted they become reality for the individual. I tried this on my younger brother - inventing an incident (where he got lost at our local mall) that never happened (supposedly it happened when he was six). Within a few weeks he had embellished the information I gave him and genuinely (to this day) believes it was real. If you doubt me, take some time to Google false memory syndrome and false abuse accusations. Decide for yourself whether this is, at the very least, possible.

4. Farrow's reckless and sometimes unstable behavior since her break with Allen has had the opposite affect of what she would like. It can't help but create some reasonable doubt about the accusations, because it lends credence to the argument that she is capable of coaching her children (deliberately or not) with these accusations (thereby creating false memories).

5. Allen did not raise Farrow's children. This is a factual matter, not a question of opinion. He did not live with her and formed no emotional bonds with them. I know tons of men dating women who have children, who show no interest in parenting, or being a father figure towards, the woman's children. If he were living in her home, or they were married, I would be more sympathetic towards the righteous anger directed towards Allen in this regard. Bottom line, he wasn't Soon-Yi's dad. Period.

6. Allen doesn't exhibit any of the behaviors typical among pedophiles. First, were he a pedophile, I would have expected him to move in with Farrow, to increase his opportunities to groom and molest the children. Indeed, I would have expected him to have had relationships prior to Farrow with women who had children, again to increase his opportunities to molest a child (this was not the case with any of his previous relationships). I would have expected him, as a famous movie director, who is a pedophile, to go to Hollywood to live (which is, after all, pedophile capital of the world), and make lots of movies with lots of child actors (there are plenty who have, but that is for another thread), many of whom have parents who would look the other way to advance their child's (and hence their own) careers. Very few of his movies have featured child actors and he remains ensconced in New York. Finally, Woody Allen was 57 when Farrow discovered his affair and the abuse allegations were made. Nobody (let me stress that again) - NOBODY - becomes a pedophile in their 50s. A pedophile who is 50 has left a string of victims behind them. Were Allen a pedophile I would have expected at least 1 (if not a dozen - or 2 dozen) of his victims to have stepped forward when these accusations were made. We've certainly seen that in other instances (for example, the Jerry Sandusky case). Does all this mean Allen is not a pedophile - no. But it certainly provides reasonable doubt.

7. Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children under the age of 11 by persons who are at least 16 years old. That would certainly quality in the case of the molestation charge - but not as regards Soon-Yi. You can argue that his actions were immoral (I agree) and cruel (because of the pain his actions caused Farrow - and I agree), but you can't describe it as pedophilia because words, after all, have meanings. Rational discourse is impossible if people invent meanings for words and then throw them around.

8. Mia Farrow's admission of an affair with Frank Sinatra, while with Allen, hasn't anything to do with whether or not Allen is guilty of child sexual abuse. You can attack her as having low morals, but it isn't relevant to the question at hand.

Bottom line, Allen's behavior with Soon-Yi was reprehensible. It is mitigated to some degree by the fact that they are still together after 20 years. Certainly, it appears that she does not consider herself a victim. As for the molestation case, I don't think anyone here can offer anything other than conjecture and opinion. No one KNOWS the truth, except for Allen, and perhaps his accusers. When I see people making categorical statements one way or the other - he's guilty - he's innocent - that tells me more about them than it does Woody Allen.

4. Farrow's reckless and sometimes unstable behavior since her break with Allen has had the opposite affect of what she would like. It can't help but create some reasonable doubt about the accusations,

Huh? Why?

People who keep pointing out that Soon-Yi was "not a child" when they married are ignoring the fact that he saw her through childhood.

Also this "where are the other victims?" line is just so headsmacky and dumb.

also the part about "he was not a father figure. period." ignores that - whatever woody's perspective in hindsight - her kids, as they suggest in the later VF article, might go ahead and see the guy who dates their mother for a decade and adopts their siblings as a father figure, even if he lives across the street instead of the same house. it's like saying you're not a role model.

Shit like When I see people making categorical statements one way or the other - he's guilty - he's innocent - that tells me more about them than it does Woody Allen. - I mean, fair enough. But if there's one thing that's obvious this week about Allen, it's that - as a culture - we're far more in danger of valorizing the man for creative work while ignoring the crimes he's accused of than sending him away without a fair trial or anything.

Decide for yourself whether this is, at the very least, possible.

i..... guess i can't prove conclusively that mia farrow didn't.. deliberately plant a false memory with her daughter that her father was a pedophile. that's true.

http://img.pandawhale.com/60355-Mary-Poppins-claps-gif-7MLU.gif

Bottom line, Allen's behavior with Soon-Yi was reprehensible. It is mitigated to some degree by the fact that they are still together after 20 years. Certainly, it appears that she does not consider herself a victim.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Kay_Letourneau

my own personal reaction about his art is that i'm happy to watch everything up until the abuse starts, and anything past that skeeves me out. (conveniently that's when it all went to shit)

i was just trying to think if there were any allen movies i'd be sad never to see again, and the first one that came to mind was 'crimes and misdemeanors.' which, i suddenly realized, is about a guy who commits a horrible crime and decides at the end of the movie that he can live with the guilt of never getting caught.

i guess i don't really understand the need to come to a decision about a situation we can't actually know the truth of

i can see that need being very present if you are related to or work with woody, mia, or another of the parties directly involved

on the other hand i don't really judge anyone for making their decisions about it

i do judge people who judge people over making a decision about it that they don't like; some people just like to argue, i guess

re. people falling in love with adults who they had known as children. it doesn't seem that uncommon. it's certainly a staple of literature until early this century. i guess i don't feel qualified to judge this, as much as it may creep me out (and i do get a shiver of repulsion when i think about it). i'm sure there are examples where the relationship is fundamentally imbalanced and exploitative and other examples where it's not. who am i to judge the internal dynamics of other folks' relationship, esp. on scant evidence? i don't mean this about woody and soon-yi in particular (there are reasons why that case is especially unsettling) , but in general since folks upthread have deplored this phenomenon of women or men falling in love with people they had known as children. again, my being creeped out by something is not a reason for me to assume that it's wrong in every case.

i could easily do w/o woody allen movies. actually the one woody allen movie i think i've seen in the past decade is vicky christina barcelona and i wish i hadn't seen it.

Soon-Yi was in my art history survey course for two semesters in college. I sat in front of her, but I didn't have any interaction with her.

it's certainly a staple of literature until early this century.

I thought of this when I noticed that Gigi, Oscar-winning Best Picture of 1958, is playing at MoMA in a couple weeks.

...yes, after all, this has been a trope of literature throughout the ages, and I mean, come on, Beatrice was 7 or whatever when Dante first saw and fell in love with her, and women were viewed as chattel who were married off in exchange for a bride price as soon as they started to bleed, for most of history - so why why why can't rich dudes just groom and rape 13 year olds now, like men have done all through history, back when women were considered property with no rights, let alone desires of their own, instead of having to pay attention to stupid little trifles like consent and avoiding abuse or coercive situations. God damn, civilisation is so fucking stupid!

did you miss the part where i noted that i was talking about people who fall in love with adults who they had known as children? it isn't necessarily the case that this involves "grooming" or pedophilia or the other things you mention. i'm not speaking specifically of the woody/soon-yi relationship.

i feel like you are willfully misreading my post so that you can follow it up with as much righteous indignation as you can muster. i hope you feel better now.

i do judge people who judge people over making a decision about it that they don't like; some people just like to argue, i guess

are there really people judging people for liking woody allen movies, though? perhaps in huffpo comment boxes and whatnot - people one already likely judges harshly - but i don't recall that sentiment on thread.

that's not what i'm referring to at all, maybe that wasn't clear

i'm referring to people who

a) judge/condemn people harshly for deciding that they believe WA is a pedophile

b) judge/condemn people harshly for deciding that WA is not a pedophile

on the grounds of "you have not come to the same conclusion as I have based on the same modicum of evidence"

This is a factual matter, not a question of opinion. He did not live with her and formed no emotional bonds with them.

Stopped reading there

even there, am, i'm just curious where those people are, unless you're just referring to website comment box types

What I'm asking is, how many of those "girl falls in love, in adulthood, with adult man she knew as a child" stories were written *by* women and how many were written by men.

(And examine the social and economic circumstances in which they were justified.)

Now, I should really not be on this thread, because this is not a matter I can discuss dispassionately.

it's like saying you're not a role model.

― da croupier, Tuesday, January 14, 2014 10:20 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

whoa dont bring chuck into this

it's funny that the anger over this ramps up when someone decides to give WA another one of the awards he hasn't cared about or shown up to receive for his entire career, even before there was any controversy for him to shy away from.

I really do wonder why they bothered having Feminist Tribute To Woody Allen when he wasn't even there

It's ramped up *now* because Twitter is a platform by which people can distribute information which was not widely known before, without having to go through the "entire floor of a building" of publicists devoted to upholding a wealthy, culturally influential man who has the power and the influence to write narratives justifying his morally repugnant actions in the eyes of the public.

female writers have historically used the girls-grows-up-to-love-adult-friend trope rather a lot! off the top of my head:

in C Brontë's Villette, a 17-year-old falls in love with a 27-year-old she knew when she was 6 and he sixteen
in J Austen's Emma, the 20-year-old Emma Woodhouse falls in love with the 37-year-old Mr Knightley who she has known all her life

it's the plot of at least one georgette heyer romance (these old shades); margery allingham's detective, albert campion, eventually marries amanda fitton who he met when she was 17 and he somewhere in his thirties; i can't swear to it but i'm fairly sure the same trope is present in one of the Tamora Pierce YA fantasy novels I read as a teenager.

*girl-grows-up-to-love-adult-male-friend, i mean

last year's gg lifetime achievement speech had jodie foster giving mel gibson a shout-out, this year diane keaton singing a girl scouts song to woody allen, how are they going to top this in 2015

Kanye bigups gwb while wearing nazi uniform

C#m, We have pretty much thoroughly covered "ways in which the Brontes write about shockingly terrible relationships" on the other thread. J Austen's Emma was pretty much the only other one I could think of offhand. "Hot, mysterious, older guy" is totally a trope in female romantic writing throughout the ages, but he's far more often played for his mystery, rather than for his "father figure"-ness?

I also think this trope is very much connected with the cultural narrative of "your only career is matrimony and you only get one shot, or are ruined" and therefore going for a family friend who is known to be reliable is a wise career choice, rather than "OMG, I want to fuck all my dad's friends (or indeed my adopted dad)" being An Inherently Romantic Trope. Greek tragedies excepted, possibly.

There's also the novel Father Figure by G.Michael

That relationship, in Villette, is distinctly not of the "dude watching with the brontës" type.

also, to be entirely up-to-date, the last twilight book features an infant who grows up (admittedly in an accelerated fashion) to fall in love with her mother's male best friend.

I find it squicky and weird, and cannot imagine ever being in that situation, but there are certainly women for whom the trope appeals, even in the modern era when women have significantly better options for meeting new people.

If you are asking "how many of those "girl falls in love, in adulthood, with adult man she knew as a child" stories were written *by* women and how many were written by men." - a lot of them were written by women; this is not an good argument for expressing the very real problems with this kind of behaviour in the modern era.

OK, fine, I stand corrected. (Though I cannot also but point out how many people have pointed out exactly how abusive and coercive and unhealthy the relationships depicted in the Twilight series are, so that example in particular is not a good one. But again, some women also have rape fantasies; that does not justify rape, nor does it justify rape culture being a masculine creation.)

There are many, many problems here. I am at a distinct disadvantage in discussing this topic with anything approaching rationality, because of personal experiences. I can't discuss it as an adult, only as a 13 year old. But the whole "this is a trope in fiction, therefore it's understandable in real life" argument deeply, deeply skeeves me out.

But I guess Noodle Vague is right, in that it gives me a good idea of who to avoid in future.

"this is a trope in fiction, therefore it's understandable in real life"

but... who made this argument? certainly not me. i didn't argue that anything was "understandable"; in fact, i made the opposite argument, that I didn't feel qualified to make a blanket judgment one way or the other. maybe your experience makes you more qualified to do so, maybe it just makes you feel more qualified, i don't know. we're talking about a relationship between two consenting adults, and it seems to me worthwhile to start from the premise that each adult relationship is established on its own terms and has its own dynamics. which is to say, such relationships could be hideously exploitative, or they could be relatively healthy, or anywhere in between. i say this despite, as i've noted, having a visceral disgust for this sort of thing. there are many things that reflexively (?) disgust me that i don't feel qualified to judge.

now if you can demonstrate that this particular type of relationship tends strongly to fall into abusive/exploitative patterns, perhaps I would feel more qualified. so far I see assertions "very real problems with this kind of behavior in the modern era" without explanation.

amtst, have you ever thought about why statutory rape laws exist? a white middle class 15-year-old can give her "consent" to a white middle class 40-year-old but we as a society have decided that the power imbalance is so great as to render that consent unreliable.

similarly, when the power imbalance is as great as that between father/daughter, or world-famous celeb/abused child left for dead with lingering social difficulties, "consent" seems like a pretty flimsy hook to hang your "hey, who can REALLY know the interiority of a love affair?" hat on

as for your second graf i can only assume you're setting aside what dylan says woody allen did to her. i can't think that you require any explanation of why that's wrong.

Thank god no one has thrown out that chestnut known as "innocent until proven guilty"