Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

- Who put River Song's grave on Trenzalore, seeing as she wasn't there?

But remember RS telling Clara that was a false grave, the entrance to a secret tunnel. Of course, there's the question of who placed it there, but, er, timey wimey!

Was a messy episode. Some people are really up in arms about it. If you're a Moffat hater then it gives you all the ammunition you need - not much of a story, too rushed, too much tell, not enough show etc. Tying up dangling threads with expository dialogue was disappointing. You get the feeling he left them dangling with a view to do something with them, but when he couldn't think of anything, just ignored them before waving them away with some info-dumps. But I enjoyed Smith's final scenes and the jarring regeneration into Capaldi. Loved Capaldi's Tom Baker-esque bug eyes.

I don't know that much was actually wrapped up from previously being dangling, as opposed to being spelled out in dialogue because Moffat listened to ppl whinging abt not having put it together themselves.

(Same for the "don't kiss me unless I ask" line, though I don't think this was excellent handling of it.))


Handwave.jpg (also not explicit this is anything more than being given more regenerations -

ehhh, it's p explicit as a consequence at least, comes after Clara pleading with the Vadge Of Rassilon to do anything they can to help / save him

although it kind of screws with the plot (such as it is) of the Five Doctors if giving a whole new cycle makes a Time Lord into Super Pow Shooty Man then doing it to The Master is kind of a mistake...)

a) well yeah let's not lean on The Five Docs too hard
b) literally 0.000001% of the audience for this have any idea about The Five Doctors. as far as nu-Who is concerned the entire regeneration limit [otherwise mentioned TWICE on telly in the last 30 years] [THIRTY YEARS] was only brought up and dealt with in three minutes of this one episode and doesn't deserve any further consideration. Moffat's only included it as a box-ticking sop to saddoes who give a shit about it (ie himself)
c) regeneration has consistently been shown as FAR MORE WEIRD AND UNPREDICTABLE in all of nu-Who than the classic series with energy beams flying around the place often
d) uhhhhhhh... yeah? the 80s Time Lords are a bunch of total idiots and giving the Master new regenerations WAS a bad idea!

A really shit one, which is only needed to fulfil a prophecy you wrote yourself.

a) the prophecy presumably got corrupted and chinese-whispered and elaborated during the time-hopping centuries or milennia that the Kovarians were faffing about, not to mention was likely originally Madame K spinning a bunch of shit to sound fancy and sway her underlings

b) c'mon son, you love 1970s Who. The Master never knowingly designed a trap that wasn't completely stupid and largely counterproductive, it's a trait of would-be Who villains to overthink their plots into ludicrosity.

All they are trying to do is prevent the Doctor from bringing back the Timelords and they can do that without all he complicated shenanigans.

the main Church believes they can stop the Doctor from bringing back the Time Lords. the offshoot has an ecumenical dispute about the interpretation of scripture, and want to achieve this through different means. this is THE ENTIRE REASON that they split off!

Before the audience in effigy, yes. There are any number of times The Doctor might have told The Most Important Companion Ever Clara or The Most Important Companion Ever Amy or The Most Important Companion Ever AND WIFE River - not least when he's going to actually DIE die

Doesn't seem in character for Eleven to do this. He's repeatedly, significantly shown as being wary of his death, and not wanting to discuss it. Plus he knows that, somehow, he's going to have future incarnations - to him, he wants to not fail as the person he is right now.

(as we now know he would have done) in Let's Kill Hitler. But instead of these most important people ever he tells The Silence

Seems they could have researched this themselves, not been told?

after fighting with him, then the history established in The Name of the Doctor is now wrong and didn't happen. This is probably why Clara spent the entire episode going on about why he should change history.

well, yeah.

that and so it wasn't nicked from Lawrence Miles after all.

** so, sorry for not addressing all of AA's specific and detailed and reasoned critiques at that moment

you are forgiven

b) c'mon son, you love 1970s Who. The Master never knowingly designed a trap that wasn't completely stupid and largely counterproductive, it's a trait of would-be Who villains to overthink their plots into ludicrosity.

Shit just happens in70s Who, nowadays it's all for a purpose. I know, I just need to accept NuWho is just because; plot reasons.

glad we got amy back for one line. was smith really bald when he shot this? are there shots of both of them bald?

There are pics of MS with a buzz cut, though I don't know if that was specifically due to that scene.

nah, he had some other gig

He got a buzz cut for the Ryan Gosling film he did, but shaved it freshly during the filming, presumably to make the wig fit better. Didn't realise he'd gone full cueball though.

the only thing I was hoping for in this, which didn't happen, was that clara would go back to her parents with capaldi's doctor at the end and claim he was her real boyfriend.

plotting was a mess and considering how poor he is at it it really is a mystery why he goes so ott w/ the plotting. that said was entertained and got quite weepy at the very end (prepare to roll yr eyes but i like thinking the doctor's scottish accent is somehow due to pond being in his thoughts at the time). loved that the actual regeneration was this snap instant change. matt smith was my first doctor and i'll miss him terribly, one thing i wonder though for ppl who've been watching for awhile is if it's common to have this sensation where whatever sadness you're feeling quickly flips to excitement and anticipation w/ the first brief look of the new doctor.

yeah, that's a pretty unique feeling (which for the first time ever i didn't get yesterday)

part of me would like to see moffat and lindleof team up to see what kind of overly and poorly plotted mess they could come up w/

would also propose we start a new thread for capaldi era and that the thread title include the phrase 'OH MY GOD HE'S OOGLY'

'CAPALDI IS THE BRAND NEW EXCITI oh wait moffat's still in charge nm'

the only thing I was hoping for in this, which didn't happen, was that clara would go back to her parents with capaldi's doctor at the end and claim he was her real boyfriend.

Could still happen! I mean, after they sort out the TARDIS piloting thing.

'CAPALDI IS THE BRAND NEW EXCITI oh wait moffat's still in charge nm'

― Autumn Almanac

Eh, I'm excited for the first time in a few years - hoping the change in Doctor and the wrapping up of all the byzantine plot threads points towards a major change of tack for next season.

Everybody says something along your second point after every season, though.

smiths' era had, very much, a style and flavor to it. I realize not everyone liked it but I thought it worked way more often than it didn't. there were some rubbish stories, yes, but also some amazing highlights. The whole thing did very much have a fairy tale aire about it, from meeting amelia as a girl to the tardis in the sky with the staircase. I'll miss that stuff, wonder what they'll replace it with.

Read somewhere that Moffat said the major inspiration for next time will be T Baker's first season.

See I like overly-complicated byzantine plots, I just don't think Moffatt's attempts at them have been very successful or engaging. He's better at creepy/wtf? moments, set pieces and clever throw-away lines. Hope he sticks to those strengths instead of this whole Doctor Who as The Saragossa Manuscript thing.

Yeah I totally agree with all of that.

Though I have it on good authority that school-age kids have been completely lapping up all the twisty turny meta-arcs in recent Who, so what do we know really.

can we get a moratorium on the weeping bloody angels jfc they were cool ONE TIME

Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone was cool too. No more mileage in them now though.

I can see why they won't let them go though, they're the only new monsters who have really gained iconic status.

It's their own fault for nerfing them, though.

Oh come on, I just watched the xmas ep after having read all the complaining and criticism in advance.

I loved it! And I was pretty lukewarm about most of Series 7. I felt like Smith-as-old-man was almost a sort of payoff for enduring the more obnoxiously manic bits that have increasingly dominated the characterization.

I don't get the hate! Oh well...

re: the doctor's grave - it's possible that a future incarnation of him died on Trenzalore anyway? iirc River Song wasn't supposed to be there at all (she's still in the Library) - the doctor or someone else put her gravestone there to hide the secret entrance to his tomb.

Funny given all the doubts about him when he was first cast but I'm going to miss Matt Smith so much. Didn't matter how rubbish the stories were - he always found a way to make them work somehow.

oh whoops someone else already explained abt river song's grave upthread - that's what i get for skimming and posting first, and reading properly later. :/

the one smart-arse bit i liked was "WITH YOUR RULES!" - comparing the Daleks to the canon-preservation-society of fans (with their insistence on regeneration count) that had forced the plot-gymnastics

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan)

Britain's Obtusest Shepherd OTM. That, and the inversion of the old 'immortal' character stays young and watches mortal 'love' grow old thing.

[also hello Sic, I said the other night I'd say hello when I bumped into you on here]

Yeah I liked the mortality aspect too. Smith's Doctor lived for at least 600 years as far as I can tell, which represents a pretty good innings considering he was only 900 years old at the start of the Tennant era.

Noticed a shift in the last couple of seasons between the companion who travels with the Doctor at all times and the companion who pops in and out of the Tardis in between their normal life. Amy and Rory did this in the last season or two as well.

They're probably going to need to bump up the Tardis crew a bit in the Capaldi era, I'm not sure that young girl travels with scary bug-eyed old guy is quite going to cut it with today's audience but another person or two in there would balance it a bit.

Some companions who aren't Clara ftw.

can we get a moratorium on the weeping bloody angels jfc they were cool ONE TIME

THIS THIS BLOODY THIS

Eh, I'm excited for the first time in a few years - hoping the change in Doctor and the wrapping up of all the byzantine plot threads points towards a major change of tack for next season.

if moffat's full of anything it's surprises. not holding my breath though.

"Some companions who aren't Clara ftw."

I really like her now.

I think the actress has been doing a game job with a bunch of very variable scripts. She doesn't have Amy's charisma.

lol Amy had charisma?

Yeah I knew someone would say that. I think she did.

amy had red hair

amy had legs and red hair

amy had legs and red hair

OTM.

Especially the past tense. T______T

but I do think she had a lot of charisma, she was the most likable nu-era companion aside from donna, to me. I mean I guess you can say she was just pouty and legs and hair but I think she had depth.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/f193a28c131fdcffffd401e398e46668/tumblr_mydrooQl2s1qg3q94o1_1280.jpg

such legs

Nobody has ever mistaken my red hair for charisma. I must be doing it wrong.

I didn't really care for this, though I can't get too angry about it either. Wacky naked Doctor hijinks put me in a slightly grumpy mood not improved by a tour of all the loose ends of the last 3 series joined together in a slightly unconvincing manner.

Some nice moments though and will miss Smith despite being quite tired of Moffat writing for Smith. Hoping Capaldi's non-Smith/Tennant-ishness will force things in a new direction but we'll see.

Hoping Capaldi's non-Smith/Tennant-ishness will force things in a new direction but we'll see.

https://24.media.tumblr.com/131ff7c99aab5a56f094d94348fb38ee/tumblr_mygtx4ttyC1sn0j3jo2_500.png

;_;

OMG HES NOT OOGLY