Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Eight could have three series of polls, audios, novels and comics

Saw the 50th in 3D again this arvo, still fucken great you guys

I know I'm slow, but... when he's in the future or present his bow tie is red, and when he's in the past it's blue? Just like the vortex's colours when the Tardis travels (blue when it travels into the past, red when it's in the direction of the future, green is when it's complicated)? Cool.

Holy shit--I had never noticed any of that. Nice one!

uh, when would you notice that? the bow tie thing definitely isn't true, and are there any episodes in which the time vortex behaves that way?

well, that would explain it, then

all the rushing to this thread tells me everyone else hated it as well

yes, sic, yes, yes i know, yep, yep, yes, yes i know, yes sic, yes, okay yes, yes of course, yep, yep, yes, yes sic you're right, yes i know, yep, yes sic, yes but it really was a heaving and utterly convoluted bag of shit from start to finish

people not rushing to thread because it's christmas and there's other things happening? i liked it. from top to bottom. best xmas special since the relaunch

Smith's Doctor going out on a perfectly pitched "well this has all been pretty good fun, hasn't it?" note, nice antidote to the crazily overblown Tennant exit

all the rushing to this thread tells me everyone else hated it as well

This hasn't been broadcast in the US yet and most of us are still enjoying our families anyway

i'm sure people jumped into this thread rather more quickly in previous years

anyway don't rush away from your families for this one

bah humbug, this was better than most of the series that's just finished. and probably more enjoyable than the 50th special

this was better than most of the series that's just finished

i agree 100%, but probably not for the same reasons

it was very good. great three story run at the end of smith's tenure, with name/day/time.

I liked it! I was glad the Grand Moff tied up all the loose threads hanging around and had me convinced for a few seconds that he had indeed had some sort of masterplan all along. I teared up a few times, so it was a successful Christmas Special in my book.

my wife cried when the bow tie hit the ground, I consider that a success (she is basically a reluctant fan who would never admit it)

Grandstanding nonsense, but mostly very effective grandstanding nonsense. I enjoyed it loads and found it moving in parts.

Waiting for more people to post and explain the plot to me.

Specifically what the hell the invisible crack timelords were after.

They were in the pocket universe waiting to see if it was safe to come out, in case which the Doctor would've told them his name.

For all the villains they packed in and apocalpyticism, this was remarkably low-key! TBH, Matt Smith's address to the camera was a lot too thick -- Moff trying to go for a Prospero's epilogue (oops Tempest spoilers) a little too obviously/fan-servicey -- but I was really affected by Clara's desolation at her dinner.

I was waiting till the Merkins had seen it before posting.

I enjoyed it about as much as I've enjoyed the rest of Moffatt's time but the plot REALLY doesn't stand up to scrutiny against Moffatt's own show logic.

Why didn't Clara try to kill the Silent, since all humans have had coded into them to kill Silents on sight since the Moon landing broadcast?

If regeneration energy kills a planet full of daleks then how could they have ever invaded Gallifrey? Surely after they killed the first Time Lord then BOSH invasion over?

So the Silents from the church here travelled back in time to the dawn of man and started influencing mankind's development and invent space travel to build a spacesuit to kill the Doctor? When they already had space travel and spacesuits and time travel and shit?

Hang on, doesn't his mean the Silents that killed the Doctor knew he was the final regeneration before everybody else did, because it was always their plan to kill him finally?

If this Doctor is the final one, how come he nearly regenerated in that episode (was it Day of the Doctor, maybe)?

Who put River Song's grave on Trenzalore, seeing as she wasn't there?

There's more, but wth I had fun watching. I am annoyed though that after months of Moffatt saying that we'd all missed something which would let the numbering make sense and allow for Capaldi, and it was definitely that we'd missed something, and we'd all kick ourselves when we found out what it was, and Moffatt had read lots of internet theories but nobody had got it yet, and we'd just missed something... It turns out to be a brand new handwave Maguffin that Rusty would have been proud of.

That last paragraph doesn't bode well for his "you've seen it, it happened, but no-one on the whole of the internet has spotted it yet" resolution he has up his sleeve for Sherlock (I didn't realise he'd done the whole "I am way smarter than EVERYONE ON THE INTERNET mwahahahah" thing about this as well). Bah.

It's a lot harder to handwave shit away in Sherlock though, because it actually has to follow real-world rules.

I saw a bit of this yesterday but there were lots of family distractions at the same time but there did appear to be a point where not a single person on Twitter was following what was going on. I enjoyed it when I watched it again today but it would probably have been better without the Christmas stuff shoehorned into it. Possibly just too much stuff in it for a Christmas special really.

I hope that's the end of the over-elaborate timey wimey plot that Moffatt's been doing for the entire Smith era but really it does just tie itself up with knots when the show would be just as enjoyable without it. The resolution was really "ah I don't give a shit about the rules" which is fair enough but if so why bother making the whole thing so complex in the first place?

Bits I enjoyed - the wooden Cyberman was pretty cool, as was the whole manic energy of the first few minutes. Clara's gran's speech at the dinner was surprisingly moving in the context of everything else. Also I was wondering if the Doctor's "I've been a bit rusty lately" line was intentional. After all the bombast of the burst of regeneration energy, the actual change was really fast, like Capaldi's face suddenly pounced on you.

Thank god Capaldi's Doctor will actually have a Scottish accent, btw.

Overall Smith has been a great Doctor but by-and-large he's been squandered as a result of dodgy scripts, for the last couple of years at any rate. The very first Smith-Moffatt season is probably the best nu-Who run, either that or the Ecclestone season.

Loved this tbh*, second best Christmas special ever. and no idea why ppl on twitter were going on about the plot not making sense when I was in an airport twenty hours ago**.

Why didn't Clara try to kill the Silent, since all humans have had coded into them to kill Silents on sight since the Moon landing broadcast?

yeah true, that's a biggie

If regeneration energy kills a planet full of daleks then how could they have ever invaded Gallifrey? Surely after they killed the first Time Lord then BOSH invasion over?

this was an entire cycle's worth of regeneration energy / a special assist from the Time Lords to help the Doctor win in this situation, not a regular regeneration.

So the Silents from the church here travelled back in time to the dawn of man and started influencing mankind's development and invent space travel to build a spacesuit to kill the Doctor? When they already had space travel and spacesuits and time travel and shit?

its_a_trap.jpg

Hang on, doesn't his mean the Silents that killed the Doctor knew he was the final regeneration before everybody else did, because it was always their plan to kill him finally?

Before who else? The audience?

If this Doctor is the final one, how come he nearly regenerated in that episode (was it Day of the Doctor, maybe)?

...Hurt regenerates in Day Of The Doctor, not Smith. He becomes Eccleston.

Who put River Song's grave on Trenzalore, seeing as she wasn't there?

What does this matter? It hasn't happened yet from the perspective of this episode, and might not for centuries. But pretend Capaldi goes and does it sometime next week, out of sentiment, if you need an answer now.

I am annoyed though that after months of Moffatt saying that we'd all missed something which would let the numbering make sense and allow for Capaldi, and it was definitely that we'd missed something, and we'd all kick ourselves when we found out what it was, and Moffatt had read lots of internet theories but nobody had got it yet, and we'd just missed something... It turns out to be a brand new handwave Maguffin that Rusty would have been proud of.

There haven't been months of Moffatt saying this AFAIK, just one sentence once, to a specific group of people. Can you link to multiple instances of him saying "it was definitely that we ie not the ppl on the panel at the Cheltenham Literature Festival in October'd missed something, and we'd all kick ourselves when we found out what it was, and Moffatt had read lots of internet theories but nobody had got it yet,"?

And all I've seen since he said that one line, is people going "ah, he's probably counting the time Tennant regenerated and didn't change." So.




* except all the ladies chucking giant wide-ons for Smith, zzz

** so, sorry for not addressing all of AA's specific and detailed and reasoned critiques at that moment

Looking forward to how they get out of the 24th regeneration being the last one in 2063!

I fell asleep in the last half so I have to rewatch tonight :/

this was an entire cycle's worth of regeneration energy / a special assist from the Time Lords to help the Doctor win in this situation, not a regular regeneration.

Handwave.jpg (also not explicit this is anything more than being given more regenerations - although it kind of screws with the plot (such as it is) of the Five Doctors if giving a whole new cycle makes a Time Lord into Super Pow Shooty Man then doing it to The Master is kind of a mistake...)

its_a_trap.jpg

A really shit one, which is only needed to fulfil a prophecy you wrote yourself. All they are trying to do is prevent the Doctor from bringing back the Timelords and they can do that without all he complicated shenanigans.

Before who else? The audience?

Before the audience in effigy, yes. There are any number of times The Doctor might have told The Most Important Companion Ever Clara or The Most Important Companion Ever Amy or The Most Important Companion Ever AND WIFE River - not least when he's going to actually DIE die (as we now know he would have done) in Let's Kill Hitler. But instead of these most important people ever he tells The Silence, presumably in one of those confessions you don't remember - the effects of which seem quite far reaching because he managed to forget that one of his very old, very good friends created them a long time ago otherwise he might have said something during the whole Silence plot. Because if she created them after that then surely he would have said to her OH NOES DON'T DO THAT THEY TURN BAD AND TAKE OVER THE EARTH.

...Hurt regenerates in Day Of The Doctor, not Smith. He becomes Eccleston.

He doesn't actually regenerate in the one I'm thinking of but his hand goes all glowy and he mentions that he's worried it's going to start. Can't remember when it is.

What does this matter? It hasn't happened yet from the perspective of this episode, and might not for centuries. But pretend Capaldi goes and does it sometime next week, out of sentiment, if you need an answer now.

It matters because this is when it happens in the history established to date. If the Matt Smith Doctor doesn't die on Trenzalore and have the big tomb, and River be buried there after fighting with him, then the history established in The Name of the Doctor is now wrong and didn't happen. This is probably why Clara spent the entire episode going on about why he should change history.

As for Moffat saying things multiple times, mea culpa if I've got things wrong. I blame journalists recycling the same story over and over, but for specific examples he said at Excel in November "you can't break the rules of The Deadly Assassin" (and also interestingly that the Doctor doesn't know which incarnation he is) :

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s7/doctor-who/news/a533505/doctor-who-steven-moffat-on-regeneration-limit.html

Which I know isn't the same thing but I'm being antisocial enough at the in-laws typing this without going internet searching.

After all the bombast of the burst of regeneration energy, the actual change was really fast, like Capaldi's face suddenly pounced on you.

I actually was tickled by this, probably the most surprising aspect of the special!

saw this ep after I saw the generally strongly -ve (on my twit-stream) reaction. wanted to prove ppl wrong. couldn't.

the one smart-arse bit i liked was "WITH YOUR RULES!" - comparing the Daleks to the canon-preservation-society of fans (with their insistence on regeneration count) that had forced the plot-gymnastics

what was the name of the faction that travelled back to explode the tardis that one time? (never mind I expect I will try a 2nd time watching with the kids. eventually)

the Kovarian faction, led by Mme Kovarian, as seen throughout S6

- Who put River Song's grave on Trenzalore, seeing as she wasn't there?

But remember RS telling Clara that was a false grave, the entrance to a secret tunnel. Of course, there's the question of who placed it there, but, er, timey wimey!

Was a messy episode. Some people are really up in arms about it. If you're a Moffat hater then it gives you all the ammunition you need - not much of a story, too rushed, too much tell, not enough show etc. Tying up dangling threads with expository dialogue was disappointing. You get the feeling he left them dangling with a view to do something with them, but when he couldn't think of anything, just ignored them before waving them away with some info-dumps. But I enjoyed Smith's final scenes and the jarring regeneration into Capaldi. Loved Capaldi's Tom Baker-esque bug eyes.

I don't know that much was actually wrapped up from previously being dangling, as opposed to being spelled out in dialogue because Moffat listened to ppl whinging abt not having put it together themselves.

(Same for the "don't kiss me unless I ask" line, though I don't think this was excellent handling of it.))


Handwave.jpg (also not explicit this is anything more than being given more regenerations -

ehhh, it's p explicit as a consequence at least, comes after Clara pleading with the Vadge Of Rassilon to do anything they can to help / save him

although it kind of screws with the plot (such as it is) of the Five Doctors if giving a whole new cycle makes a Time Lord into Super Pow Shooty Man then doing it to The Master is kind of a mistake...)

a) well yeah let's not lean on The Five Docs too hard
b) literally 0.000001% of the audience for this have any idea about The Five Doctors. as far as nu-Who is concerned the entire regeneration limit [otherwise mentioned TWICE on telly in the last 30 years] [THIRTY YEARS] was only brought up and dealt with in three minutes of this one episode and doesn't deserve any further consideration. Moffat's only included it as a box-ticking sop to saddoes who give a shit about it (ie himself)
c) regeneration has consistently been shown as FAR MORE WEIRD AND UNPREDICTABLE in all of nu-Who than the classic series with energy beams flying around the place often
d) uhhhhhhh... yeah? the 80s Time Lords are a bunch of total idiots and giving the Master new regenerations WAS a bad idea!

A really shit one, which is only needed to fulfil a prophecy you wrote yourself.

a) the prophecy presumably got corrupted and chinese-whispered and elaborated during the time-hopping centuries or milennia that the Kovarians were faffing about, not to mention was likely originally Madame K spinning a bunch of shit to sound fancy and sway her underlings

b) c'mon son, you love 1970s Who. The Master never knowingly designed a trap that wasn't completely stupid and largely counterproductive, it's a trait of would-be Who villains to overthink their plots into ludicrosity.

All they are trying to do is prevent the Doctor from bringing back the Timelords and they can do that without all he complicated shenanigans.

the main Church believes they can stop the Doctor from bringing back the Time Lords. the offshoot has an ecumenical dispute about the interpretation of scripture, and want to achieve this through different means. this is THE ENTIRE REASON that they split off!

Before the audience in effigy, yes. There are any number of times The Doctor might have told The Most Important Companion Ever Clara or The Most Important Companion Ever Amy or The Most Important Companion Ever AND WIFE River - not least when he's going to actually DIE die

Doesn't seem in character for Eleven to do this. He's repeatedly, significantly shown as being wary of his death, and not wanting to discuss it. Plus he knows that, somehow, he's going to have future incarnations - to him, he wants to not fail as the person he is right now.

(as we now know he would have done) in Let's Kill Hitler. But instead of these most important people ever he tells The Silence

Seems they could have researched this themselves, not been told?

after fighting with him, then the history established in The Name of the Doctor is now wrong and didn't happen. This is probably why Clara spent the entire episode going on about why he should change history.

well, yeah.

that and so it wasn't nicked from Lawrence Miles after all.

** so, sorry for not addressing all of AA's specific and detailed and reasoned critiques at that moment

you are forgiven

b) c'mon son, you love 1970s Who. The Master never knowingly designed a trap that wasn't completely stupid and largely counterproductive, it's a trait of would-be Who villains to overthink their plots into ludicrosity.

Shit just happens in70s Who, nowadays it's all for a purpose. I know, I just need to accept NuWho is just because; plot reasons.

glad we got amy back for one line. was smith really bald when he shot this? are there shots of both of them bald?

There are pics of MS with a buzz cut, though I don't know if that was specifically due to that scene.

nah, he had some other gig

He got a buzz cut for the Ryan Gosling film he did, but shaved it freshly during the filming, presumably to make the wig fit better. Didn't realise he'd gone full cueball though.

the only thing I was hoping for in this, which didn't happen, was that clara would go back to her parents with capaldi's doctor at the end and claim he was her real boyfriend.

plotting was a mess and considering how poor he is at it it really is a mystery why he goes so ott w/ the plotting. that said was entertained and got quite weepy at the very end (prepare to roll yr eyes but i like thinking the doctor's scottish accent is somehow due to pond being in his thoughts at the time). loved that the actual regeneration was this snap instant change. matt smith was my first doctor and i'll miss him terribly, one thing i wonder though for ppl who've been watching for awhile is if it's common to have this sensation where whatever sadness you're feeling quickly flips to excitement and anticipation w/ the first brief look of the new doctor.

yeah, that's a pretty unique feeling (which for the first time ever i didn't get yesterday)

part of me would like to see moffat and lindleof team up to see what kind of overly and poorly plotted mess they could come up w/

would also propose we start a new thread for capaldi era and that the thread title include the phrase 'OH MY GOD HE'S OOGLY'

'CAPALDI IS THE BRAND NEW EXCITI oh wait moffat's still in charge nm'

the only thing I was hoping for in this, which didn't happen, was that clara would go back to her parents with capaldi's doctor at the end and claim he was her real boyfriend.

Could still happen! I mean, after they sort out the TARDIS piloting thing.

'CAPALDI IS THE BRAND NEW EXCITI oh wait moffat's still in charge nm'

― Autumn Almanac

Eh, I'm excited for the first time in a few years - hoping the change in Doctor and the wrapping up of all the byzantine plot threads points towards a major change of tack for next season.

Everybody says something along your second point after every season, though.

smiths' era had, very much, a style and flavor to it. I realize not everyone liked it but I thought it worked way more often than it didn't. there were some rubbish stories, yes, but also some amazing highlights. The whole thing did very much have a fairy tale aire about it, from meeting amelia as a girl to the tardis in the sky with the staircase. I'll miss that stuff, wonder what they'll replace it with.

Read somewhere that Moffat said the major inspiration for next time will be T Baker's first season.