Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Trudat

do have a bit of an issue with all the laser guns and destroying gallifrey with a big bomb - the doctor has always been odysseus rather than hector, escaping his strange worlds and alien creatures with cunning rather than force - particularly apposite comparison for this specific episode, searching for home.

I like this reading! To play along, though, you could say that the Moment was sort of the Trojan Horse, a cunning technology that leads to mass slaughter and the annihilation of a place. But yeah, considering that Odysseus leads his men to death, the analogy takes on a certain resonance re: the Doctor's companions.

TBH the Doctor still resolves the main conflict with cunning: he doesn't fire a single shot. And when the War Doctor used the big bomb, that was considered the darkest hour for the guy, so dark that he subsequently refused to call that incarnation "Doctor". I took that that was the promise in the name "Doctor" that Clara reminds him of: never be cruel, always find a third way.

Yes! Also, wondering if the War Doctor is sort of a tweaked analogue to "No Man."

So as soon as the movie ended there was a behind the scenes special, and I'm not sure if this is a common thing in the UK but that sort of thing NEVER happens in American movies and it was kind of weird and slightly broke the spell of such a wonderful movie. They really should have shown it before the movie.

Also, I never really got a sense of how bad the Time War was and why exactly such drastic measures needed to be taken to end it. Is this explained at all in any classic Dr Who serials I should be aware of?

I felt that too - like, it was supposed to threaten the entire fabric of the universe, not just Gallifrey, right? But you don't get that. Also whoever said Hurt was too much of a genial old man OTM. By the time he got to the point of pushing the button he should have been way more battle-scarred.

yeah, hurt looks battle scarred but he didn't act it so much

No, he still managed to come off as convincingly being the Doctor, which was a feat as far as I was concerned.

the Time War does not exist at all in any old serials

Hurt was refreshed by going on a normal, non-War Doctor Who adventure with the other Doctors! shit weighed heavy on him still when he was alone

I watched Five(ish) Doctors at 3am because otherwise I wouldn't be able to until after Christmas, maybe, and it was SO GREAT, so glad it turned out to be a real on-TV thing and not just for Davison's youtube channel

I am slightly surprised, Dan/VG, that neither of you said anything about Matthew Waterhouse in Moffat's dream.

uh what about LISA BOWERMAN being in it?!

I think that this is one thing that NuWho has done pretty effectively from the word go tbh, from the spirit/ghost things that lived in the lamps bcuz their homeworld had been destroyed in the war to Eccleston's amazing performance in the face of a surviving Dalek, through the twisted insanity of Dalton's Time Lords to the reaction of that girl to No. 8 in McGann's little cameo ep. It all got forgotten about w/ Smith for a bit but it's worth remembering what a massive story arc the Doctor's implied genocide and "You are not alone" were for the first 3 or 4 series. I mean that was basically the whole impetus behind the reboot. Basically I'm saying that short of actually showing us the Time War (and the sub-Phantom Menace space battles in the special showed what a bad idea this would've been) I'm not really sure how much more emphasis they could have given to the "OMG Time War was this horrific dreadful thing that scarred the universe and fundamentally changed the Doctor's sense of who he is and what is role is" angle without it all becoming more even more tedious than it actually was

Good that it's been satisfactorily resolved and the show is in a position to move onwards and upwards in a new direction imo

yall are gonna fp me but i didnt even recognise Waterhouse :/

it's almost like he's aged more than three decades since he was on the show

Basically I'm saying that short of actually /showing/ us the Time War (and the sub-Phantom Menace space battles in the special showed what a bad idea this would've been)

interesting you should mention that, because so much of the standing-around-and-talking in this ep (with hyper-fx cutaways) reminded me exactly of all the phantom menace sound stage scenes.

ban ^

i could fite you, but instead i'll walk slowly beside you and discuss trade tariffs

again and again reminded the version of this thing they showed in america apparently very different than the version they showed overseas

The 50th? Different how so?

from the spirit/ghost things that lived in the lamps bcuz their homeworld had been destroyed in the war to Eccleston's amazing performance in the face of a surviving Dalek, through the twisted insanity of Dalton's Time Lords to the reaction of that girl to No. 8 in McGann's little cameo ep.

The problem was, though, that even though the atrocities had been alluded to in several earlier episodes, and even though Dalton in "The End of Time" certainly gave the impression of someone who could burn down the entire universe, none of that stuff was really conveyed to this episode. This was the first time that we saw actual glimpses of the war, but Time Lord bosses in this episode felt fairly benevolent compared to Dalton, and the battle scenes never showed the supposed atrocities committed by the Time Lords, just wide-eyed Gallifrey children getting slaughtered by Daleks, accompanied by Murray Gold's maudling strings.

Okay, there was throwaway line or two by the Doctors explaining how the Time War was about to destroy everything, but the number one rule of visual fiction is "show, don't tell", and by showing just one side of the war (innocent Gallifreyan victims), they kinda fucked it up. As a result the Doctor's decision to sacrifice his own race felt really weak, even though it was supposed to be justified and understandable in a way. His justification for the massacre was more convincing in those earlier episodes, where the Time War wasn't depicted onscreen.

So yeah, I think they should've included a scene of two showing the effects of the war on the rest of the universe, instead of just focusing on Gallifrey. At the very least they should've incorporated "The Night of the Doctor" mini-episode to "The Day of the Doctor", since that one was far more effective in amking the actions of the War Doctor understandable, and it was only 7 minutes.

"amking" = "making"

again and again reminded the version of this thing they showed in america apparently very different than the version they showed overseas

FU America is overseas!

I'm with Tuomas up until the last paragraph. I actually don't think they needed to show *more of the war* in order to be convincing. In fact, showing less of it might have been better, as it looked, well, less horrific than real wars in the real world. I totally agree with "show, don't tell" in most circumstances, but you show it in the acting, the tension throughout, through giving your episode the unwavering belief that there are high stakes.

Emphasising throughout a series that the stakes are high but then assuming that your prep work is already done before a *massive, worldwide special* strikes me as bad filmmaking.

I actually don't think they needed to show *more of the war* in order to be convincing. In fact, showing less of it might have been better, as it looked, well, less horrific than real wars in the real world.

Note that I didn't say "show the war" but "show the effects of the war"... I agree that showing some actual battles might've just been corny and not particularly convincing, especially considering that an "approved for all ages" sci-fi show can hardly depict the horrors of war in a realistic way. However, "The Night of the Doctor" did illustrate the effects of the war quite convincingly via a simple interaction between the Doctor and another character, without needing to depict any actual warfare. I felt something like that was missing from "The Day of the Doctor".

Yeah, I agree with that.

in fact, showing less of it might have been better, as it looked, well, less horrific than real wars in the real world.

It looked like laser tag.

Loved the special on the whole though. You can tell Capaldi's going to be a terrific Doctor just from that one shot.

I wonder if there are going to be novels, audio plays etc about the War Doctor now?

the version in the US was exactly the same and commercial free, so not sure if that was a snark or what

Well, there was that scene near the end where Tennant and Smith bonded over Quarter Pounders because they were lovin' it

and then they hi-fived and played beer pong to 'This is How We Do It'

gallifrey had one 'l'

Five(ish) was great, and the McGann short was great.

The 50th wasn't. Disappointed that watching Matt Smith and a Tardis flying over London suspended from a helicopter was so NOT-fun. Where was fun?

To me, everything about the War Doctor reeked of "oh shit, Eccleston's backed out, what the hell we gonna do? I know, John Hurt and a rubbish tweak to the script!" "But what about continuity and all that?" "It's Doctor Who, that stuff doesn't matter! Timey-wimey!" "Stephen, you're such a genius!"

And I wouldn't have cared if it were fun. But I was very disappointed.

quel dommage

lol Sparkle otm.

Yeah see I was initially peeved that the continuity established in "The End of Time" was retconned, but then I realized I hated "The End of Time."

No, I don't like EoT either, that's not what I mean about continuity. I just think this Doctor-who-wasn't-a-Doctor-but-now-is-a-Doctor-and-hey-he-always-was-a-Doctor-because-he-never-blew-up-Gallifrey has the effect of making Eccelston's entire series a joke. 9th Doc was all about his guilt. It would have been great if 9th Doc could have overcome his guilt by not-killing the Timelords, but since War Doctor did it, it means that 9th Doc's entire era and character arc has been retconned out of its meaning.

Plus, no fun. But by all means, have a laugh at my expense!

If you don't think a fez being an important plot point and seeing 13 Doctors hide a whole planet in a pocket universe are fun, then there's not much hope of convincing you.

Hah I had a lot of fun. Though yeah the Doctor hanging from the TARDIS wasn't shot particularly well. Which was funny because during the making-of (which ran IMMEDIATELY following the special) when they are shooting that scene it is cloudy and rainy and they are like "Oh well, this is London" and maybe if this was an American show they would say 'Cut we aren't shooting until the sun is out and we have the budget to wait' but this is Doctor Who and Time is Money and damn good lighting conditions, this is London yo, let's get on w it.

Opening with the old school Dr Who titles and that original theme, just having that on a huge screen in a movie theater, was an extremely awesome experience as a lifelong American Dr. Who fan. Also seeing a sci-fi movie in a theater that isn't 80% CGI shit flying blurrily by the camera. Whenever I hear a complaint about quality or the cheesiness of the monsters or whatever, I just remind myself that this is one of the last bastion of practical effects around.

Adam, didn't realize you were American! And on that last tip regarding cheesy SFX:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/7d4cb891984b2bdfcb234ca174bb18ff/tumblr_mwuy94VD3s1qbypg1o1_500.gif

I just love this shot to bits.

9th Doc was all about his guilt. It would have been great if 9th Doc could have overcome his guilt by not-killing the Timelords, but since War Doctor did it, it means that 9th Doc's entire era and character arc has been retconned out of its meaning.

this. rusty went well out of his way to kill off all the trek-like gallifrey wank council garbage that basically killed the show first time round, and now we're back where we started.

yes i know rusty was complicit in that as well yes i know thank you sic

well what are you going to do. eccleston won't come back for whatever bizarre stick up his ass reason. I don't think the 50th was written with him in mind though. they've known for ages he wasn't coming back and Hurt was set up in Name of the Doctor.

Eccleston's refusal to give in at all seems priggish and he comes across as a huge asshole as a result of it. But I don't really like his portrayal of the doctor too much anyway.

There was a story told by somebody on Head heritage about Eccleston's reasoning behind distancing himself from the Doctor Who experience
http://www.headheritage.co.uk/headtohead/the_village_pump/topic/70165/threaded/889484

which explains his feeling shortly after the experience and may still hold true.
Seems a shame and hasn't stopped him appearing in a couple of other things that had tie ins with money making enterprises maybe it's the way it was done though?

In Eccleston's first episode it's heavily implied he's just regenerated, so although he has survivor's guilt, he's a different regeneration to the Doctor who blew up Gallifrey, which we would have previously assumed to be McGann. Whether a result of Eccleston's no-show or not, the introduction of the Hurt Doctor allows both McGann and Eccleston to remain heroes. And as Hurt, 9, 10 and until now 11, all believe they DID blow up Gallifrey then their war guilt has not been undermined. Neither have the events of EOT, as the 50th alludes to the High Council off plotting elsewhere, so that leaves scope for them to enact their plans ahead of the Doctor using the Movement. Ok, it's not the neatest of solutions, but then EOT was such a mess in the first place that there's only so much Moffat could have done.
Sure, there's a bit of handwaving with the other Doctors forgetting what they did at the end, but it's a neat way of wiping the slate clean so that the Doctor can move on, without erasing the events of the previous 7 seasons. The Doctor as lonely god/last of his kind arc was getting a bit played out. Now the Doctor can get on with being the cosmic hobo, as a friend put it, of yore. Moffat has also found a nice way of bringing back Gallifrey, at least as an idea, without bringing back all the boring Timelord bits. According to Moffat plan is simply to have the quest for Gallifrey as an underlying theme. It's not something they'll refer to specifically every other episode. It's also a good way of bringing the Master back, which is rumoured to be on the cards.

In Eccleston's first episode it's heavily implied he's just regenerated, so although he has survivor's guilt, he's a different regeneration to the Doctor who blew up Gallifrey, which we would have previously assumed to be McGann

^^^ This FFS. The Ecclestone handwringing is the worst, he's perfectly entitled not to go back to the role and the episode wasn't any worse for not having him in it. Also Hurt was terrific.

I was pretty neutral about Tennant leaving when he did, but I'm actually kind of gutted Smith only has one more episode. He's still great; it's just that the second halves of his two split seasons have been super-nothingy.

From a fanwank perspective it would have been nice to have seen Hurt regenerate into Ecclestone, but it's no biggie that we didn't. After all, we know what happens next: the beginning of Season 1. Would have been impractical to have roped him, or any of the other Doctors in for a couple of seconds of film. The Capaldi bit was presumably filmed alongside his regeneration scene and cut in at a fairly late stage. Plus he's already contracted so there's no red tape involved.

Anyway, I think Hurt was great. Loved how fun he was, while still showing a war-weary dark side. His moment of redemption was well earned.
I don't really buy this talk of Moffat quickly fixing the script to reflect Eccleston's non-involvement. After all, he set up the 'name of the doctor' idea way back in series 5 with the space whale. This isn't to say that he had the 50th all planned out back then, but it's an idea he clearly wanted to explore further. The extra Doctor (plus the meta-crisis) also gives him a way of addressing the regeneration limit in the 50th year, setting things up for another 50. So there's just too much going on to fit in with the idea that this was hastily cobbled together.

http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/IMG_0548.png?f6a06b

I love this picture, it makes it clear that John Hurt actually regenerates into Will Ferrell.

From a fanwank perspective it would have been nice to have seen Hurt regenerate into Ecclestone, but it's no biggie that we didn't.

I think we did, just about.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/D9xiA.jpg

lol xpost

Midway through the Kate Lethbridge-Stewart's transformation into a Zygon she looked exactly like Theresa May. I'd like to think that was intentional.

I think Hurt was great. Loved how fun he was, while still showing a war-weary dark side.

I thought he was mostly great. I definitely thought he was the right choice for a War Doctor. But the 'fun' aspect just didn't jibe with what the war-weary side should have been -> this is a problem with the writing, not the actor, and also a pretty big problem to balance.

After all, he set up the 'name of the doctor' idea way back in series 5 with the space whale.

Expand?

I didn't find it too jarring. He was introduced as pretty bad-ass, but once he's pulled out of the Time War into a jolly romp with the other Doctors, his more Doctorly side comes out.

'name of the doctor' The Doctor says if he kills the spacewhale he'll have to renounce the name of the Doctor. But then Amy saves the day with wuv, so he escaped that moral quandary. I suppose we could see all this as an update of 'have i the right' in Genesis of the Daleks.

Only thing really confusing me now is that I always figured the Doctor originally stole the TARDIS to escape the blowing up planet but now it feels like he stole it for other reasons then just lived for 1000 years or so and then went back to his home planet to fight in the time war(?). So why did he steal the TARDIS in the 1st (Hartnell) place? Is this ever explained?