Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

tuomas you are the only person who has ever watched this who thought it was donna.

please collect your prize at the door

this thread has been defined by grumbling since somewhere around the midway point of season 6

that's when moffat's aggrandising left the planet iirc.

i don't even mind all the clever plotting and astronomical-stakes arcs (when they work), but i keep seeing people i know drift away from this show, partly because they're confused and partly because they're bored. my geek friends are satisfied.

Something I lost track of: in the Zygon/human negotiations, when the one Osgood gives the other Osgood the inhaler, which one is which?

they don't know which is which, hence they are generous to one another, that's... the point...?

I thought we knew fairly certainly which one had the inhaler at that point, i.e. when the Zygon first took Osgood's form?

I'm confused by Osgood, having thought she was alternately Tom Baker's Doctor in disguise, a Letherbridge-Stewart and Clara's sister.

I'm not even sure where the last one came from (Osgood Oswald?) and none of them seem to be correct.

The internets says there was a UNIT Sgt called Osgood.

Anyway as someone says upthread she'd be good companion material.

Osgood with the inhaler is human

Then she gave it to the Zygon who shared it back, I think.

Human starts with it
Zygon steaks it
Human trips Zygon, takes it back
Human offers it to Zygon later

Fucking autocorrect

Ta, DJP.

Yeah, it's the human Osgood who had the inhaler. I've read some net comments saying this implies she knows she's the real Osgood, but keeps quiet about it. That makes no sense to me, because if their memories are erased, they shouldn't remember whether it was the original or the copy who ended up with the inhaler. (Like C Sharp Major, I interpreted that scene simply as a sign of generosity.)

Though TBH the whole memory erasing thing makes little sense if you think about it: Stewart says the erasing machines wipe the memory of your visit to the Black Archive... But that shouldn't be enough to make anyone forget whether they were a human or a Zygon, since they're still gonna remember the day before the visit, when they were either a human or a Zygon. In order for the memory thing to work, the machine should wipe their entire memories right down to childhood... But in that case everyone in that room should be awfully confused, and certainly not capable of having any negotiations.

The Doctors specifically calibrate the mind-wiper to only hold for a few hours, as opposed to the default setting of forever. Why would you think they can't also calibrate it to wipe the particular memories of identity, since they announce that's what they've done?

Once again a reminder: this is a fantasy show which calls its magic wands "sonic screwdrivers" - literally no-one has ever said "Of course! They reversed the polarity!" about any plot solutions.

Yeah, I know that, but I still expect any sci-fi story to play by the rules set in the story itself, otherwise its cheating. So when a story introduces a device that explicitly mentioned to do something (erase all the memories regarding a specific period of time), and the it does something different (selectively erase some memories while leaving other memories from the same time period intact) with no proper explanation, it feels dodgy to me. (And I don't like the sonic screwdriver being able to do whatever the script demands either.)

Yeah, they didn't wipe people's memories completely, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to have the discussions about the treaty at all. All they did was implement a 'veil of ignorance' about identity. When Osgood takes out the inhaler, that tells them she is the human Osgood, but they decide not to tell for the sake of peace.

Sometimes I wonder about how people find stuff so hard to follow when they're explicitly told what's happening in the programme. However, I can't really talk, as I was semi-convinced that all the blathering about dreams at the end meant that the whole special was a manifested dream of Smith and fragment-Clara still trapped in his timeline. But I guess that's because I *really* don't like the idea of Gallifrey being retconned back into existence.

Still, it was a fun romp for the most part.

xp It's more whatever the script demands within reason - being able to modify the application of an already-impossible technology without changing the impossible part is a reasonable use.

I liked the tshirts taht various people were wearing between the Afterparty and at least a couple of the Five(ish) Doctors
https://forbiddenplanet.com/?q=doctor+t-shirt+costume
is that a bit geeky?

Do like the 3rd & 4th Doctor ones especially. Look pretty detailed too or at least in the area that you can see.

Also wondering what the nature of the 3D picture is, if it has a visible edge. Like if it is only that which you can see in the picture at the time pictured. Assume it must be and have come across similar concept before taht had things like that. So it is very much xerox of sight like, like a photograph but taken with different technology & wider angle lens/ field of vision.

going back to the "are the stasis pictures real" thing with ruminations based on rewatching last night at movie theater (which btw was fun and reconfirmed that I never, ever, EVER want to go to a convention, ever; no one wanted to fuck Tom Baker back in the day, right?):

It makes the most sense to me that the images in the stasis pictures are copies of a moment in time? Otherwise, Gallifrey wouldn't actually be lost; in fact, in the story it's explicitly said that they stuck the planet in a random side dimension and they aren't sure exactly where it is. So, I think everything in the picture is a copy EXCEPT for the Doctors and Clara and the Dalek they use to blow out the glass is a copy of an invading Dalek.

(I mean seriously though, the kids sitting next to me were squeeing so hard every time David Tennant said anything that I wanted to hand them some wet wipes and hand sanitizer)

am guessing the arc for the capaldi's first season will be finding/saving gallifrey though maybe that will stay on the back burner

I realized that I don't care so much about Gallifrey returning as I do about Romana popping back up. In my mind, she's tied to Gallifrey since she ended up as President of the High Council in the books but the show hasn't followed up on that, so there's no need to bring the planet back in order for her to reappear.

I'm ready for nu-Who to try a full-on historical, too.

Well, I wonder if, once regenerated, Capaldi's take on the character will involve a shift in motivation from that shown with Smith?

BRIEF MUSICAL INTERLUDE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OamwmcGuP0A

This was fun but what really delighted me was that Delia Derbyshire appeared in the credits </pvmic>

You'd think one of the Daleks would have shouted "HANG ON! GALLIFREY'S GONE! STOP EXTERMINATING!"

Saw this, last night in 3D, and wow yeah it was a great time! DEFINITELY glad i saw it in 3D, it really seemed to be written with that specifically in mind.

The biggest problem with Dan's theorising is that then the Gallifrey-hiding version only either makes a copy (if it's based on the camera) or puts it in an existing picture (which doesn't appear to exist and/or is contradicted by the dialogue). They say Gallifrey is hidden as a 'sliver of time', which is the same way the Doctor describes the painting at the outset.

no one wanted to fuck Tom Baker back in the day, right

dude

I'm talking about the "HE'S OOGLY" brigade, who seemed to surround us in the movie theater and couldn't stop their longing sighs every time Tennant appeared on screen

but my takeaway from your reaction is that decision I made at 11 to avoid Who fandom was a good one

btw halfway through The Five(ish) Doctors and this is seriously the best fucking thing

Five(ish) Doctors was hilarious- really well played. I could see these guys doing at least another couple of these.

The hiding-Gallifrey-so-the-Daleks-all-shoot-each-other play was basically just a massive version of how the Doctor took down the Weeping Angels at the end of Blink.

xxpost -- It's so goddamn great. Watched it again last night after I got back from the theater, nobody gets out alive from that thing.

It made sense with the angels as they'd be locked as soon as they saw each other (though a bit of me thinks they *should* be able to look at each other without freezing) but this "Oh no we're all killing each other! Fuck it let's keep going until we're all dead!" doesn't seem like something the Daleks would fall for.

so awesome that Peter Davison dreams about Janet Fielding, I feel like we are brothers

Can I also say how maddening it was that Night of the Doctor was so short? It could easily and probably should have been a full episode. I really enjoyed seeing McGann briefly and would not mind at all if they started running an 8th Doctor series.

watching the five(ish) doctors

THEY'RE ALL SO CUTE I LOVE THEM

YESSS NOW YOU CAN APPRECIATE MY RUSTY GIF.

do have a bit of an issue with all the laser guns and destroying gallifrey with a big bomb - the doctor has always been odysseus rather than hector, escaping his strange worlds and alien creatures with cunning rather than force - particularly apposite comparison for this specific episode, searching for home.

I like this reading! To play along, though, you could say that the Moment was sort of the Trojan Horse, a cunning technology that leads to mass slaughter and the annihilation of a place. But yeah, considering that Odysseus leads his men to death, the analogy takes on a certain resonance re: the Doctor's companions.

I am slightly surprised, Dan/VG, that neither of you said anything about Matthew Waterhouse in Moffat's dream.

what is there to say beyond "lol awesome"

Trudat

do have a bit of an issue with all the laser guns and destroying gallifrey with a big bomb - the doctor has always been odysseus rather than hector, escaping his strange worlds and alien creatures with cunning rather than force - particularly apposite comparison for this specific episode, searching for home.

I like this reading! To play along, though, you could say that the Moment was sort of the Trojan Horse, a cunning technology that leads to mass slaughter and the annihilation of a place. But yeah, considering that Odysseus leads his men to death, the analogy takes on a certain resonance re: the Doctor's companions.

TBH the Doctor still resolves the main conflict with cunning: he doesn't fire a single shot. And when the War Doctor used the big bomb, that was considered the darkest hour for the guy, so dark that he subsequently refused to call that incarnation "Doctor". I took that that was the promise in the name "Doctor" that Clara reminds him of: never be cruel, always find a third way.

Yes! Also, wondering if the War Doctor is sort of a tweaked analogue to "No Man."

So as soon as the movie ended there was a behind the scenes special, and I'm not sure if this is a common thing in the UK but that sort of thing NEVER happens in American movies and it was kind of weird and slightly broke the spell of such a wonderful movie. They really should have shown it before the movie.

Also, I never really got a sense of how bad the Time War was and why exactly such drastic measures needed to be taken to end it. Is this explained at all in any classic Dr Who serials I should be aware of?

I felt that too - like, it was supposed to threaten the entire fabric of the universe, not just Gallifrey, right? But you don't get that. Also whoever said Hurt was too much of a genial old man OTM. By the time he got to the point of pushing the button he should have been way more battle-scarred.

yeah, hurt looks battle scarred but he didn't act it so much

No, he still managed to come off as convincingly being the Doctor, which was a feat as far as I was concerned.

the Time War does not exist at all in any old serials

Hurt was refreshed by going on a normal, non-War Doctor Who adventure with the other Doctors! shit weighed heavy on him still when he was alone

I watched Five(ish) Doctors at 3am because otherwise I wouldn't be able to until after Christmas, maybe, and it was SO GREAT, so glad it turned out to be a real on-TV thing and not just for Davison's youtube channel

I am slightly surprised, Dan/VG, that neither of you said anything about Matthew Waterhouse in Moffat's dream.

uh what about LISA BOWERMAN being in it?!