Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

yep

Tuomas' theory is kind of unlikely, as it still being The Doctor is all the show has to hang its hat on in that respect.

I didn't mean Capaldi won't be the Doctor, obviously he'll still retain the memories of the earlier Doctors, but he just won't a regeneration of Smith. Maybe Capaldi is an alternate universe Doctor snatched from his own timeline, maybe the Doctor's consciousness is transferred to a new body... I'm sure they can come up with some explanation for it.

It's obvious though, isn't it? If Gallifrey still exists then the Matrix still exists and if the Matrix still exists then the Doctor can be given more lives by the High Chancellor as in the Five Doctors, job done, bosh.

It seems to me that search for Gallifrey will be a plot that's spared for season 8. I can't imagine they'll be able to fit the Doctor's death and rebirth, the conclusion of the Silence storyline, and the Doctor rediscovering Gallifrey in one Christmas special.

Haha, that would make him the Valeyard. Awesome. Moffatt said previously it's already been explained and we have all missed it - but then he's untrustworthy so who knows. It'll just be a made-up throwaway inconsistent thing in the end anyway, you know it will.

I'm assuming the Christmas special has to take place between the end of the last series and the anniversary special, because that just ends with the "less than shadows" trapped in the Doctor's timestream watching previous incarnations running about. It then jumps to them being out in the anniversary show, everything being fine and Clara being a teacher.

The High Chancellor thing doesn't have to happen before the end, it can happen at the end of the next series and Moffatt will say it was in place at the time therefore it's retrospectively allowed and belm everyone.

I'm assuming the Christmas special has to take place between the end of the last series and the anniversary special

How is that possible? Hasn't it been stated that the Christmas special is the episode where the Capaldi Doctor will be introduced? So how can it take place before the anniversary special, where Smith is still the Doctor?

wibbley-wobbley-timey-wimey

Or something.

Smith is supposedly 13 anyway if "10.5" counts, which apparently Moffatt does.

I haven't seen the episode where the regenration limit was stated, but according to Wikipedia it's said that the Doctor can regenerate 12 times, meaning that he can have 13 different incarnations. So if the 10.5 counts, it means the Smith Doctor has regenerated 12 times, so he can do it no more.

What is there to conclude about the Silence story?

I thought it was a reasonably clear dodge regarding the regenerations when River gave him all of hers in Let's Kill Hitler.

Actually, given that Moffat loves to tie small details in earlier episodes into his plots, who's to say the Capaldi Doctor isn't actually the guy from Pompeii who he played in that earlier episode, with the Doctor's consciousness transferred to his body or something? Then they'd have a neat explanation for the fact that the new Doctor just happens to look like a random Roman he met earlier.

What is there to conclude about the Silence story?

Well, it still remains unclear why exactly the Silence wanted to kill the Doctor, and why they blew up the Tardis. And the prophecy quoted by the fat guy at the end of season 6 mentioned that the Silence were somehow tied to what happens to the Doctor on Tenzalore. But we didn't see them in "The Name of the Doctor", nor was the prophecy properly explained, so I think that's still to come in the Christmas episode.

I thought it was a reasonably clear dodge regarding the regenerations when River gave him all of hers in Let's Kill Hitler.

IIRC River just used his regenerative powers to bring him back from death, I don't think it was ever stated he gained any extra regenerations from that. Though I guess they could still use that as way of explaining why the 12 regeneration limit doesn't apply anymore, if they want to take that route.

lol 12 regeneration limit doesn't apply anymore because it was just some shit made up on the hoof back when the time of crossing that bridge wd have seemed unimaginably distant.

I don't understand how people are counting such that Matt Smith's Doctor is actually the 13th and not the 12th

Did you see that programme that was on on Saturday night yet?

He's the 12th... But Tennant Doctor used one of his regenerations in the 4th season finale, which resulted in Doctor-Donna, so that apparently means Smith has no regenerations left (if 12 is the limit).

(xpost)

So basically Tennant used two regenerations... I haven't watched the old Dr. Who episodes, so I don't know whether the rule is that he can only have 12 regenerations (in which case Smith can't regenerate anymore), or if it's that he can only have 13 different incarnations (in which case Smith could still regenerate into Capaldi, if Doctor-Donna doesn't count as proper incarnation, and Capaldi would be the last incarnation).

Though obviously all this is just fan speculation, I'm not sure if the whole 12/13 limit has even been mentioned during the rebooted series?

You're talking about the leftover regeneration energy from the transition from 9 to 10 that was stored inside of a severed hand kept inside a stasis chamber, which does not actually count as a regeneration IMO

Or are you talking about when the Dalek shot him and he started to regenerate but then shut it off before it could happen but after he'd healed himself, AKA Yet Another Stupid Bullshit Movie Pulled By Rusty?

Okay, I caved in and read the Mirror article, and it seems Moffat indeed thinks Smith is the last of the 13 incarnations:

(SPOILERS!!!)

Asked about the Christmas episode and the regeneration of Doctor Who, Moffat confirmed Matt was the 13th Doctor and told the Mirror: "The 12 regenerations limit is a central part of Doctor Who mythology - science fiction is all about rules, you can't just casually break them.
"So if the Doctor can never change again, what's Peter Capaldi doing in the Christmas special?"

fukkin Rusty

yeah was just thinking this

What happened to the regeneration energy that came from Tennant's chopped off hand in the regeneration episode for him, did that get used by the Master or something? Or was that what was fueling Donna? Not got this straight .

Does that actually explain anything re this?

I thought that 2 regenerations thing was a convention that had been discounted. Seems odd taht he 's sticking hard and fast to that doesn't it?

Anyway will find out at Xmas. Anybody know when the actual Capaldi series begins?

12 regeneration

What happened to the regeneration energy that came from Tennant's chopped off hand in the regeneration episode for him, did that get used by the Master or something? Or was that what was fueling Donna? Not got this straight .

That was what was fueling Donna; Torchwood picked up the hand and put it into a stasis chamber, which the Doctor took back from them, which Donna touched and accidentally created that carbon-copy half-human Doctor with and implanted Time Lord stuff into her mind.

TBH I think they might get something cool out of this plotline; if the Doctor know he can't regenerate anymore, the stakes should be higher than they were with the previous Doctors. I just hope that whatever solution they come up with to bypass his mortality is some cool sci-fi idea and not the "power of love saves all" thing that's been done to death by this point.

FYI they won't get something cool out of this plotline, it will be a bag of nonsense.

science fiction is all about rules, you can't just casually break them.

this fuckin guy

That was what was fueling Donna; Torchwood picked up the hand and put it into a stasis chamber, which the Doctor took back from them, which Donna touched and accidentally created that carbon-copy half-human Doctor with and implanted Time Lord stuff into her mind.

IIRC the energy from the Doctor's interrupted regeneration in the season 4 finale goes into the hand, Donna then touches hand the hand, and the hand becomes a human/Time Lord hybrid Doctor, and Donna becomes a Time Lord/human too, or something. So I guess creating two half Time Lords consumes enough regeneration energy for one full regeneration to be deducted from the Doctor's total of 12.

(Also, it was implied in "The End of Time" that Donna will eventually become the mysterious Time Lady seen throughout that episode, so it seems she keeps the Time Lord essence she got from Tennant.)

science fiction is all about rules, you can't just casually break them.

no you must break them with great gusto and hand-waving and aplomb.

FYI they won't get something cool out of this plotline, it will be a bag of nonsense.

I guess that's possible... But at least the basic concept that the Doctor can't rely on regeneration anymore, that he's now fully mortal, feels like its worth exploring.

Time Lords have always been fully mortal, since the first episode in which they appeared, before regeneration per se was invented

(Troughton says they're "basically immortal, barring accidents")

the regeneration limit was obviously originally a one line toss off but it's one absolutely everyone remembers and has hung onto; no way moffatt was going to ignore it, but obviously the show is going to continue. I don't see why anyone would be disappointed or surprised that this is coming up (I'm a little surprised they're counting the tennant regeneration though).

"(Also, it was implied in "The End of Time" that Donna will eventually become the mysterious Time Lady seen throughout that episode, so it seems she keeps the Time Lord essence she got from Tennant.)"

I never got that implication at all. I believe that mysterious time lady was meant to be the doctor's mother.

(Also, it was implied in "The End of Time" that Donna will eventually become the mysterious Time Lady seen throughout that episode, so it seems she keeps the Time Lord essence she got from Tennant.)

No it wasnt, just the opposite in fact because it was said outright that if she ever became vaguely Timey again she would go mad instantly.

Also as the Master showed in the combined plots of Deadly Assassin/Keeper of Traken then running out of regenerations isn't necessarily a problem, so taking up a new body can be done - but it appears it will end up looking like your last one.

um, did we change this thread's position on spoilers while i wasn't looking? i mean i know this mirror thing is still at the level of rumours rather than spoilers but this kind of isn't... in keeping... with how this thread usually works.

i mean, i fucking love spoilers, but i have always considered this thread an oasis of linking-offboard and gloomy references to what spoilers might be contained elsewhere.

(Also, it was implied in "The End of Time" that Donna will eventually become the mysterious Time Lady seen throughout that episode, so it seems she keeps the Time Lord essence she got from Tennant.)

No it wasnt, just the opposite in fact because it was said outright that if she ever became vaguely Timey again she would go mad instantly.

At the end of the episode there's a scene where Wilfred asks the Doctor who the Time Lady is; the Doctor doesn't answer anything, but we see that he's looking wistfully at Donna. I don't think there's any other way of interpreting that scene than that the Time Lady is her. (And I don't remember there being any hints that she's the Doctor's mother, how was that implied?)

Yeah, it was also said the Timey stuff would drive her mad, but I guess she just eventually got over that? Donna being her would also explain why the Time Lady uses such a familiar tone when talking to Wilfred, calling her "old soldier" and all...

It's a Rusty serial, everyone looks wistfully at everything.

<looks wistfully at teapot>

but we see that he's looking wistfully at Donna. I don't think there's any other way of interpreting that scene than that the Time Lady is her.

lol, I have seen other ppl arguing IN THE LAST HALF HOUR that bcz of that look, she couldn't possibly be anyone other than Susan

*looks wistfully at radiator*

Well yeah, but since there were no other answers to the question of who the Time Lady was, and since that wistful loo came immediately after Wilfred's question, I took it had some signifigance.

(xpost)

lol, I have seen other ppl arguing IN THE LAST HALF HOUR that bcz of that look, she couldn't possibly be anyone other than Susan

Who's Susan, and why would the Doctor's look imply it's her?

*looks wistfully at loo*

Sorry about that. But I still don't get why the wistful look would signify the Time Lady is some random character who doesn't even appear in that series (I assume "Susan" is someone from some old Who series)?

I seriously can't

Tuom As Victorious

Guys you know they're just going to handwave that regeneration issue away with some Tardis magic or something, right? Really it's enough that the Doctor *thinks* he's on his last regeneration.

Tuomas, the first episode is 25 minutes or less, you might enjoy it

So Susan is in the first episode? Yeah, I've been thinking of watching it one of these days... Is it a self-contained episode?

I'd still love to hear this theory how the Doctor's glance means the Time Lady is Susan...?

Hope it is something that is arrived at through a process fo character development etc rather than something arriving purely deus ex machina.

Really am wondering what Capaldi is going to look like as the Doctor and what personality quirks he''ll bring. Can't be too closely related to Malcolm presumably or he'd be getting typecast. But outside of Neverwhere and that I still can't really think what I've seen him in.

Sorry, I was talking about the regeneration problem, should have edited that accordingly

Susan is the grand-daughter in the first series. Was she left behind on the earth after they'd foiled the Dalek invasion? Anyway, seemed to be the first time they'd really been parted in centuries or something.

The first 4 episodes were shown on BBC3 last week. Interesting to see the quirks the doctor had at the time.

Okay, I remember reading about the grand-daughter... But does that mean the Doctor has a wife (before River) and kids too? Why are they never mentioned?

One of the quirks of the series I suppose. It's never been in doubt that Susan really is his granddaughter though. There was also this:

During World War II, the Ninth Doctor encountered Dr Constantine, taking care of carriers of the Empty Child plague, who told the Doctor, "Before this war began, I was a father and a grandfather. Now I’m neither. But I’m still a doctor." The Doctor replied, "Yeah. I know the feeling."