Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

xp yeah. i also wonder whether his refusal to discuss doctor who in the thor interviews is more that he's simply not allowed to (although i don't know the facts here).

also, this from last year: http://www.blastr.com/2012/08/matt_smith_really_really.php

He (Christopher Eccleston) also spoke with real warmth and enthusiasm about the character of the Doctor and what a real joy of a character it is to play. In response to a question about whether he felt he'd taken the character as far as he could he (very tellingly) said he felt that one series isn't enough to get under the skin of the character and that if he'd had two or three series he'd have developed the role considerably. He said that if you looked at the other Doctors (with the exception of Tom Baker) you can see them working out how to play the character through their first series because it's such a complex and challenging role. He said several times that there was more for him to do with the character.

Yeah, I remember fans in Other Places talking about the interview and Chris' imminent return to the fold on the strength of his words. I get the impression that he doesn't cope well with big personality producers - the issue behind him leaving was either to do with Rusty or Julie Gardner and about how they treated people who the considered beneath them. All the implication this time is that he got quite far negotiating being in the special but something personal happened with someone (presumably Moffatt) and that's why he didn't want to be part of it.

cant wait for the moffat era book to be written

seriously, every unanswered question i have about the doctor atm concerns all the recent behind-the-scenes guff

potentially huge xmas spoilers (addresses recent discussion itt but can't say how obv): http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/doctor-who-christmas-spoilers-matt-2847509

I'm not gonna read that, but my theory for the Christmas special is that, since Smith was revealed to be 12th and not the 11th incarnation, he can't regenerate anymore. So the "body" of the Doctor seen in "The Name of the Doctor" really is Smith's body; he actually dies in the Christmas special, leaving his body behind on Trenzalore. This would explain why, when Clara jumped inside the "body", she was only shown helping the Doctors up until Smith, but not any Doctor after him. The "body" didn't contain any information on future Doctors because it wasn't some future Doctor's body, it was Smith's. The Capaldi Doctor then comes into existence via some timey wimey magic, not through a regeneration. This would also mean that the ending of "The Day of the Doctor" is not contradictory anymore: the Doctor does really die on Trenzalore, but the museum curator also is a retired Doctor from the distant future. The dead Doctor and the curator Doctor are simply two different persons.

32 days until i stab myself to death with a ballpoint pen

what i'd love is for capaldi to appear and go 'fuck it, let's find a haunted house'

Tuomas' theory is kind of unlikely, as it still being The Doctor is all the show has to hang its hat on in that respect. Smith is supposedly 13 anyway if "10.5" counts, which apparently Moffatt does.

It's obvious though, isn't it? If Gallifrey still exists then the Matrix still exists and if the Matrix still exists then the Doctor can be given more lives by the High Chancellor as in the Five Doctors, job done, bosh.

I'm looking forward to the Doctor keeping the painting Gallifrey Falls/No More in his Fortress of Solitude and little Kryptonians coming out of it to help him in his adventures. Maybe sometimes he could put himself in the painting and have adventures on the surface of Arcadia, maybe fight soem baddies. Oh wait, that's the Bottle City of Kandor.

Curious now - what was the massive spoiler mentioned a week or so back?

Tom Baker's appearance, I believe.

yep

Tuomas' theory is kind of unlikely, as it still being The Doctor is all the show has to hang its hat on in that respect.

I didn't mean Capaldi won't be the Doctor, obviously he'll still retain the memories of the earlier Doctors, but he just won't a regeneration of Smith. Maybe Capaldi is an alternate universe Doctor snatched from his own timeline, maybe the Doctor's consciousness is transferred to a new body... I'm sure they can come up with some explanation for it.

It's obvious though, isn't it? If Gallifrey still exists then the Matrix still exists and if the Matrix still exists then the Doctor can be given more lives by the High Chancellor as in the Five Doctors, job done, bosh.

It seems to me that search for Gallifrey will be a plot that's spared for season 8. I can't imagine they'll be able to fit the Doctor's death and rebirth, the conclusion of the Silence storyline, and the Doctor rediscovering Gallifrey in one Christmas special.

Haha, that would make him the Valeyard. Awesome. Moffatt said previously it's already been explained and we have all missed it - but then he's untrustworthy so who knows. It'll just be a made-up throwaway inconsistent thing in the end anyway, you know it will.

I'm assuming the Christmas special has to take place between the end of the last series and the anniversary special, because that just ends with the "less than shadows" trapped in the Doctor's timestream watching previous incarnations running about. It then jumps to them being out in the anniversary show, everything being fine and Clara being a teacher.

The High Chancellor thing doesn't have to happen before the end, it can happen at the end of the next series and Moffatt will say it was in place at the time therefore it's retrospectively allowed and belm everyone.

I'm assuming the Christmas special has to take place between the end of the last series and the anniversary special

How is that possible? Hasn't it been stated that the Christmas special is the episode where the Capaldi Doctor will be introduced? So how can it take place before the anniversary special, where Smith is still the Doctor?

wibbley-wobbley-timey-wimey

Or something.

Smith is supposedly 13 anyway if "10.5" counts, which apparently Moffatt does.

I haven't seen the episode where the regenration limit was stated, but according to Wikipedia it's said that the Doctor can regenerate 12 times, meaning that he can have 13 different incarnations. So if the 10.5 counts, it means the Smith Doctor has regenerated 12 times, so he can do it no more.

What is there to conclude about the Silence story?

I thought it was a reasonably clear dodge regarding the regenerations when River gave him all of hers in Let's Kill Hitler.

Actually, given that Moffat loves to tie small details in earlier episodes into his plots, who's to say the Capaldi Doctor isn't actually the guy from Pompeii who he played in that earlier episode, with the Doctor's consciousness transferred to his body or something? Then they'd have a neat explanation for the fact that the new Doctor just happens to look like a random Roman he met earlier.

What is there to conclude about the Silence story?

Well, it still remains unclear why exactly the Silence wanted to kill the Doctor, and why they blew up the Tardis. And the prophecy quoted by the fat guy at the end of season 6 mentioned that the Silence were somehow tied to what happens to the Doctor on Tenzalore. But we didn't see them in "The Name of the Doctor", nor was the prophecy properly explained, so I think that's still to come in the Christmas episode.

I thought it was a reasonably clear dodge regarding the regenerations when River gave him all of hers in Let's Kill Hitler.

IIRC River just used his regenerative powers to bring him back from death, I don't think it was ever stated he gained any extra regenerations from that. Though I guess they could still use that as way of explaining why the 12 regeneration limit doesn't apply anymore, if they want to take that route.

lol 12 regeneration limit doesn't apply anymore because it was just some shit made up on the hoof back when the time of crossing that bridge wd have seemed unimaginably distant.

I don't understand how people are counting such that Matt Smith's Doctor is actually the 13th and not the 12th

Did you see that programme that was on on Saturday night yet?

He's the 12th... But Tennant Doctor used one of his regenerations in the 4th season finale, which resulted in Doctor-Donna, so that apparently means Smith has no regenerations left (if 12 is the limit).

(xpost)

So basically Tennant used two regenerations... I haven't watched the old Dr. Who episodes, so I don't know whether the rule is that he can only have 12 regenerations (in which case Smith can't regenerate anymore), or if it's that he can only have 13 different incarnations (in which case Smith could still regenerate into Capaldi, if Doctor-Donna doesn't count as proper incarnation, and Capaldi would be the last incarnation).

Though obviously all this is just fan speculation, I'm not sure if the whole 12/13 limit has even been mentioned during the rebooted series?

You're talking about the leftover regeneration energy from the transition from 9 to 10 that was stored inside of a severed hand kept inside a stasis chamber, which does not actually count as a regeneration IMO

Or are you talking about when the Dalek shot him and he started to regenerate but then shut it off before it could happen but after he'd healed himself, AKA Yet Another Stupid Bullshit Movie Pulled By Rusty?

Okay, I caved in and read the Mirror article, and it seems Moffat indeed thinks Smith is the last of the 13 incarnations:

(SPOILERS!!!)

Asked about the Christmas episode and the regeneration of Doctor Who, Moffat confirmed Matt was the 13th Doctor and told the Mirror: "The 12 regenerations limit is a central part of Doctor Who mythology - science fiction is all about rules, you can't just casually break them.
"So if the Doctor can never change again, what's Peter Capaldi doing in the Christmas special?"

fukkin Rusty

yeah was just thinking this

What happened to the regeneration energy that came from Tennant's chopped off hand in the regeneration episode for him, did that get used by the Master or something? Or was that what was fueling Donna? Not got this straight .

Does that actually explain anything re this?

I thought that 2 regenerations thing was a convention that had been discounted. Seems odd taht he 's sticking hard and fast to that doesn't it?

Anyway will find out at Xmas. Anybody know when the actual Capaldi series begins?

12 regeneration

What happened to the regeneration energy that came from Tennant's chopped off hand in the regeneration episode for him, did that get used by the Master or something? Or was that what was fueling Donna? Not got this straight .

That was what was fueling Donna; Torchwood picked up the hand and put it into a stasis chamber, which the Doctor took back from them, which Donna touched and accidentally created that carbon-copy half-human Doctor with and implanted Time Lord stuff into her mind.

TBH I think they might get something cool out of this plotline; if the Doctor know he can't regenerate anymore, the stakes should be higher than they were with the previous Doctors. I just hope that whatever solution they come up with to bypass his mortality is some cool sci-fi idea and not the "power of love saves all" thing that's been done to death by this point.

FYI they won't get something cool out of this plotline, it will be a bag of nonsense.

science fiction is all about rules, you can't just casually break them.

this fuckin guy

That was what was fueling Donna; Torchwood picked up the hand and put it into a stasis chamber, which the Doctor took back from them, which Donna touched and accidentally created that carbon-copy half-human Doctor with and implanted Time Lord stuff into her mind.

IIRC the energy from the Doctor's interrupted regeneration in the season 4 finale goes into the hand, Donna then touches hand the hand, and the hand becomes a human/Time Lord hybrid Doctor, and Donna becomes a Time Lord/human too, or something. So I guess creating two half Time Lords consumes enough regeneration energy for one full regeneration to be deducted from the Doctor's total of 12.

(Also, it was implied in "The End of Time" that Donna will eventually become the mysterious Time Lady seen throughout that episode, so it seems she keeps the Time Lord essence she got from Tennant.)

science fiction is all about rules, you can't just casually break them.

no you must break them with great gusto and hand-waving and aplomb.

FYI they won't get something cool out of this plotline, it will be a bag of nonsense.

I guess that's possible... But at least the basic concept that the Doctor can't rely on regeneration anymore, that he's now fully mortal, feels like its worth exploring.

Time Lords have always been fully mortal, since the first episode in which they appeared, before regeneration per se was invented

(Troughton says they're "basically immortal, barring accidents")

the regeneration limit was obviously originally a one line toss off but it's one absolutely everyone remembers and has hung onto; no way moffatt was going to ignore it, but obviously the show is going to continue. I don't see why anyone would be disappointed or surprised that this is coming up (I'm a little surprised they're counting the tennant regeneration though).

"(Also, it was implied in "The End of Time" that Donna will eventually become the mysterious Time Lady seen throughout that episode, so it seems she keeps the Time Lord essence she got from Tennant.)"

I never got that implication at all. I believe that mysterious time lady was meant to be the doctor's mother.

(Also, it was implied in "The End of Time" that Donna will eventually become the mysterious Time Lady seen throughout that episode, so it seems she keeps the Time Lord essence she got from Tennant.)

No it wasnt, just the opposite in fact because it was said outright that if she ever became vaguely Timey again she would go mad instantly.

Also as the Master showed in the combined plots of Deadly Assassin/Keeper of Traken then running out of regenerations isn't necessarily a problem, so taking up a new body can be done - but it appears it will end up looking like your last one.

um, did we change this thread's position on spoilers while i wasn't looking? i mean i know this mirror thing is still at the level of rumours rather than spoilers but this kind of isn't... in keeping... with how this thread usually works.

i mean, i fucking love spoilers, but i have always considered this thread an oasis of linking-offboard and gloomy references to what spoilers might be contained elsewhere.

(Also, it was implied in "The End of Time" that Donna will eventually become the mysterious Time Lady seen throughout that episode, so it seems she keeps the Time Lord essence she got from Tennant.)

No it wasnt, just the opposite in fact because it was said outright that if she ever became vaguely Timey again she would go mad instantly.

At the end of the episode there's a scene where Wilfred asks the Doctor who the Time Lady is; the Doctor doesn't answer anything, but we see that he's looking wistfully at Donna. I don't think there's any other way of interpreting that scene than that the Time Lady is her. (And I don't remember there being any hints that she's the Doctor's mother, how was that implied?)

Yeah, it was also said the Timey stuff would drive her mad, but I guess she just eventually got over that? Donna being her would also explain why the Time Lady uses such a familiar tone when talking to Wilfred, calling her "old soldier" and all...

It's a Rusty serial, everyone looks wistfully at everything.

<looks wistfully at teapot>

but we see that he's looking wistfully at Donna. I don't think there's any other way of interpreting that scene than that the Time Lady is her.

lol, I have seen other ppl arguing IN THE LAST HALF HOUR that bcz of that look, she couldn't possibly be anyone other than Susan

*looks wistfully at radiator*

Well yeah, but since there were no other answers to the question of who the Time Lady was, and since that wistful loo came immediately after Wilfred's question, I took it had some signifigance.

(xpost)

lol, I have seen other ppl arguing IN THE LAST HALF HOUR that bcz of that look, she couldn't possibly be anyone other than Susan

Who's Susan, and why would the Doctor's look imply it's her?

*looks wistfully at loo*