Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

That just means the painting inspired them to pull a similar trick, but it's never said that it's the same trick, nor that everyone's stored inside the painting. (Like I said, the Doctor's final speech wouldn't make sense if they are.)

Actually, the hidden Gallifrey still has all the Daleks that were on the planet when it was hidden and the Daleks were winning the ground war as we see it, so in 400 years they've undoubtedly won and so the hidden Gallifrey is now a Dalek planet. (Oh noes, I can see "you know what would be cool" and it being Skaro in the future....)

The ground Daleks wouldn't have their support troops and ships in space anymore though, could they still win the Time Lords without them?

Also when the Doctors are in the picture Gallifreyans and Daleks be running round screaming and shit so they are as real IN the picture as the Doctors therefore we have to assume as real when they are captured by whatever mechanism captures the Doctors. And the Dalek that gets blown out is certainly real.

They don't however say that Gallifrey Falls / No More is the captured image that the Doctors make.

Really not sure how this would make any sense with Ecclestone as Hurt - I can't quote chapter and verse but I think all through Ecclestone's year it was made clear that he was the one after the Doctor that killed everyone - the big reveal in The Name of the Doctor was that it was Hurt instead of McGann. Also he doesn't have any more connection to Rose Tyler than Hurt does, at this point.

Xpost to Tuomas

Seriously? You can't parse that the scarf girl is Kate's daughter even when she calls her mum, but you can create an entire new solution to resolve the plot which is never mentioned or even hinted at because otherwise a bit of dialogue wouldn't make sense?

Of course the ground Daleks would win - in something as basic as Dalek it's explicit a single Dalek could over-run the Earth army, and the Gallifreyan army is shown as being over-run as well. The actor in the 'no more' scene explains in this and in the Last Day minisode that the soldiers left are really only rough and ready recruits because they've run out of actual soldiers - it's actually supposed to be his first day of duty having only just completed basic training, and here he is defending the most important city in the final battle.

Andrew

They come out of it in the Black Archive, and Smith tells the technician to move it into the Black Archive once they have put themselves in it. Logically the easiest solution would have been for them to have been the ones to have created it and put it in the portrait gallery in the first place.

Alternatively, somebody exists in space and time who used Gallifreyan technology to capture the Fall of Arcadia and make a picture who isn't a Gallifreyan (because he would have been in the time war) or a Gallifreyan (because he would have been hidden with Rassilon) or a Gallifreyan (because he would have been hidden in the Doctor's new Maguffin).

Also, with capaldi enigmatically saying 'THIRTEEEEEEN' and hurt being acknowledged as ~the~ ~doctor~, does that mean smith is #12 now?

― Autumn Almanac, Saturday, 23 November 2013 22:54 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Isn't that one of the ornate time lords saying thirteen?

― Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 23 November 2013 22:57 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it sounded awfully like capaldi to me, but i'd have to go back to be sure tbh

― Autumn Almanac, Saturday, 23 November 2013 23:00 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It was Capaldi.

― ailsa, Saturday, 23 November 2013 23:09 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Okay, I think we're talking about different things then - at 1:06 it goes

10: You might say, I've been doing this all my lives.
1-9: Various recontextualised clips
Top Timelord: I didn't know when I was well off! All 12 of them!
Top Timelord's Exposition Sponge: No, sir... all 13!
<shot of lever being decisively thrown, slightly bloodshot eye under impressive eyebrows>

TTES is called 'Androgar' in the subtitles - TT is just called 'The General'

Hah Aldo you might want to pick a better opening gambit there..

? That's what actually happens. Not my fault the writers intends a wibbly wobbly handwave.

Er, no I mean that beating up Tuomas for jumping to the wrong conclusion works better if you don't start by claiming that the Osgood is clearly the Brigadier's granddaughter.

It's the interpretation most media sources seem to have taken and is explained in the show in a single line of dialogue. idgaf whether she is or not (because frankly the NuWho insistence on family/mummy issues doesn't interest me in the slightest) and I don't actually think it needs explaining any further than "she works for UNIT", but if she has to be *somebody* then there is a perfectly obvious explanation in the actual text.

I'm not arguing that the Doctor's aren't in the painting, I was trying (and probably failing) to address the idea that the Doctors' save Gallifrey by creating that painting.

The actual (tele-)text here is actually Ma'am, though.

but you can create an entire new solution to resolve the plot which is never mentioned or even hinted at because otherwise a bit of dialogue wouldn't make sense?

I rewatched the scene where Doctors explain their plan to the Time Lord bosses: they say that "using their TARDISes" they're gonna freeze Gallifrey in single moment in time, "you know, like those stasis cubes, a single moment of frozen time", but (Eleven adds) "except that we're gonna do it to a whole planet, and all the people in it". So clearly they're saying that they're doing something similar to what the stasis cubes do, but on a different level. A stasis cube couldn't hold a whole planet and all its inhabitants. So Gallifrey isn't inside a painting, what the Doctors did to it is something different/bigger. One of the boss Time Lords then says "we'd be lost in another universe, froze in a single moment"... So I guess that's the plot that follows in the next season, the Doctor trying to find them in whatever universe they are now. That'd explain his final monologue in this episode.

(xxxpost)

I guess Osgood could be Kate Stewart's daughter, but if that's the case, I do think it's a bit weird the writers decided to make thing more confusing by giving her a different surname, and not referring to the mother-daugher relationship besides one little piece of dialogue.

As regards how this fits with The End of Time (and I'm perfectly happy to just tip TEoT into a pit to be honest) - there's a line at the start "The High Council is in emergency session, they have plans of their own" "To hell with the High Council, their plans have already failed"

Xpost to AF No I agree with you, they don't save Gallifrey by creating the painting, they save Gallifrey by using the painting technology to hide Gallifrey away somewhere else. The painting is just Arcadia, but if the Doctors are real then it's actually the real Arcadia too.

(Further to my previous, see also NuWho obsession with characters being *someone*. They're never just a clueless UNIT grunt like the radio operator in The Daemons, they're always the cousin or grandfather of someone, or a secret aspect of an alien race or someone who secretly has top level clearance and so knows everything, or someone famous from history before they were famous. And they have to "shine brightly" or be a genius or be the greatest ever and/or be an inspiration - future or past - to the Doctor.)

Thanks if it's Ma'am. All that says to me is she doesn't need to be anyone so there's no mystery to her identity. I bet you could handwave into it that 'Osgood' means she's one of the Clara aspects from the last serial but Blinovich Limitation means she appears different as you watch it. Also her having the scarf ties in with Tom retiring from Docotring and being the Curator, giving her the scarf.

Tuomas, you've just confirmed it's the same technology. Not a painting, no, but works in the same way. So my points stand. Which one is Arcadia in?

I assumed Osgood was the daughter of some other UNIT person called Osgood who worked w/the Brig, so *creating a parallel with daughters*, and the 'mum' people claim to hear is an official-royalish 'ma'am' since that's how all the UNIT workers addressed Kate Stewart?

Really enjoyed the whole thing.

Has Eccleston distanced himself from the Doctor franchise? Just got that impression, not sure where from.

& if Tom Baker regenerated into Peter Davidson when still young and black haired what is the story on him being the much older curator too? Not sure how that works at all.

Also realising that if there are only 13 doctors present at the saving of Gallifrey that would tend to preclude any possibility of earlier regenerations than William Hartnell, which I think was being speculated on here a couple of weeks ago at least in passing. Would think Clara guiding a Hartnell Doctor to the correct TARDIS to nick would indicate something similar.
Does the humanoid embodied TARDIS say something about having picked the Doctor as much as he picked her in that episode The Doctor's Wife? Just wondering how that worked with Clara directing him to the TARDIS, if I'm remembering that episode right?

& does UNIT feature in the post Tom Baker 80s run of Doctor Whos?

Smith says "I never forget a face", Baker says "I know you don't, and in years to come you might find yourself revisiting a few, but just... the old favourites, eh?"

Hey I'll get to this thread in a day or two, but just wanted to say that I sat in the cinema in Leeds (Tom & Starry were in the same theatre! accidental Who-non-FAP) bursting with glee and thinking "man I hope Adam went to the cinema for this, even his shrivelled heart couldn't have resisted this much joy and delight":

apologise to have underestimated you, dude.

(If by Adam you mean me or it's an autocorrect then I say at the outset I enjoyed it and I'm firmly with Dan on the "just enjoy it" kick. This was a problem someone else picked up but now I'm afflicted in a "cannot be unseen" way.)

Ecclestone's pretty clearly distanced himself from the franchise now - the only living Doctor not involved with either this or Five(ish) Doctors? - but what is the franchise now? Has he been further from it than David Tennant?

I think of "the franchise" as turning up to conferences and stuff, doing audio stories - but those are all things that kept the flame alive before nu-Who, I'm curious if there is an equivalent.

I enjoyed it and I'm firmly with Dan on the "just enjoy it" kick.

Yeah, despite the nitpicking (which I think is just fun fan talk, not necessarily deep criticism), this was totally enjoyable. I can still see AA's point, though: they could've made this into a stand-alone celebration of the Doctor's 50 years, but instead it was pretty firmly rooted in the continuity of the current series... So I guess it was more of an extended regular episode with some extra dressing than a stand-alone special. But given that, I thought it was quite nicely done, certainly the best "big" episode ever since "Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang".

What is "Five(ish) Doctors", btw?

I'm no big fan of Old Who but the Five-ish Doctors thing is HILARIOUS.

My take on Eccleston is that if he says yes to even one Doctor-related thing, next thing he'll be doing conventions and for him, that's probably VERY uncool.

The Five(ish) Doctors

Three 80s doctors hadn't been approached to be in the special and Peter Davidson came up with an idea for an alternative special. Think he'd made a comment somewhere about if he wasn't going to be in the special he'd do one of his own.
I haven't seen the thing beyond the clip that was on the Afterparty but it looked like this was a comedy about the 3 aging actors trying to get involved. They've all greyed and 2 of them have thickened out somewhat as us mere mortals are wont to do over 3 decades.

Looked like it might be pretty watchable, but i don't think I get the red button option since I'm getting the channel on cable. I may download a few things from this weekend though.

I have to say that the biggest disappointment was they still haven't sacked Murray Gold... Especially after the episode started with the awesome original theme, it was pretty lame to hear his bombastic arrangements again. Like that "excitement music" (don't know if it has a name?) which I guess has at this point become the second theme of the show; I don't even think it's bad, I liked it the first time I heard it, but after that they've kept playing in every finale of every friggin' episode, so it's gotten really, really boring to hear that same riff again and again. If Gold is a composer, couldn't he, you know, compose some new music for a change?

I think it's 3/3 for the thickening, 4/3 if you count Colin Baker twice.

Five(ish) Doctors was entertaining, cameo-tastic, and occasionally very funny. It was a nice wee counterpoint to the earnestness of the real episode.

Damn, the BBC won't allow me to watch "Five(ish) Doctors" because I'm no in the UK... Is there any way to circumvent this?

The BBC site, that is.

Best LOL was Georgia Moffett being mithered by her dad while in the throes of labour.

Was her husband mithering her, no?

Or her at him. I can't remember now, but David T was definitely on the phone to her going "hmmm I'm sure there's something else I should be talking to her about..."

Tenant is Georgia's husband.

(Or was he just saying ma'am?)

No, she was mithering her husband because her dad had mithered her. She says something along the lines of "he promises if you do this one thing then he won't bother you again."

Rusty's part in it brought the lols.

that was very good - liked the incidental music gag and Peter Jackson mucking in. jolly well done all round, what

xposts, yes, I know, that's why I said "her husband".

I don't know if it was mentioned anywhere, but Sylveste McCoy was in a blockbuster Hollywood movie of The Hobbit.

He's the best thing about it though, boy should be proud.

Adam is AA

Tuomas that theme is called "I Am The Doctor" (yawn) tho tbf it is the only effective piece Gold has composed ever

(BTW Edinburgh is showing this Monday-Friday in the cinema again, does anyone know if it'll be on in London on Monday or Tuesday?)

[...at a time that won't clash with the Radiophonic Workshop at Rough Trade on Monday, or Lance Parkin & Alan Moore on Tuesday?]

Oh right, it gets a repeat then?

WAsn't actually sure fi the local cinema actually did the show since the time seemed to be struck out when i checked it on my phone's internet. & I'm not sure if they had updated time at all, still had a message about not knowing what the time would be until after the 13th.

Might be tempted to go see it again there if it was. Struck me watching it on my too small tv that it might have actually been good to see it in large scale.

saw this in an absolutely sold out packed theater in SF at noon, great fun, I thought it was all it could have been and then some. Theater got a great Strax intro where he told people to turn their phones off and talked about popcorn screaming as it is eaten, plus a nice tennant/smith pair up describing 3d with barbs about chins and wrinkly old lines. Special itself was wonderful. But, who was the scientist girl? who was her sister supposed to have been? where did she get the scarf? I thought at the end perhaps from Baker's Doctor, but...

Scientist girl was Kate Lethbridge-Stewart's daughter. Sister was plot angst. She probably made the scarf herself because she is a Doctor groupie.

I enjoyed that well enough tho I was a little let down by Hurt's part - like I felt I had been set up for a warped, bitter and near-murderous doctor/anti-doctor, then got a likeable chatty old cove along for the romp. Ditto the save-the-children Gallifrey stuff - much more interested in the Time Lords as dreadful dalek-level shits, get a bit of weight behind the 'push the button' billie-bomb question.

also, there seems to be an awfully big gulf between 'name of the doctor' and this. how come clara doesn't remember Hurt? what happened after that?

Clara never met that Doctor, as established at the end of The Name of the Doctor. Also, her memories of the time she spent as Clara fragments were hazy.

I thought the beginning of the episode was excellent rompish nu-Who fun, especially the Doctor trash talking to a rabbit. And the thirteen-Doctor resolution was terrific, which was great seeing as the resolutions are usually the worst bit of any episode. It did sag quite a bit in the middle though, there was rather too much survivor guilt really, could have done with more tension given how high the stakes actually were.

The very beginning, with the original opening credits and the school, was an excellent touch, also yes Capaldi yes Tom Baker.

I'm not exactly clear on what was supposed to have happened between the Doctor arriving on Trenzalore and the beginning of this episode, though.

Scarf girl is potentially a really good recurring character, hope she comes back.

seems like a likely future companion, if they want to move away from the sexiness with Capaldi and go more toward 'older fatherly figure' and 'normal kid' rather than 'supple 20 yr old sexpot'.

Quite a nice touch that Smith kept blaming Tennant for all the sexiness, there hasn't been much of that with his Doctor at all.

Odysseus Doctor is going to have a different feel from what we've had for a while, he's not just going to be ambling about getting into trouble. Somewhat wise for a show that's lacked direction in the last couple of years. That said, every time nu-Who has done Timelords they've been kind of terrible, maybe they always have been.