Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

I said this on Facebook but I would love to see a Hurt/Tennant/Smith buddy movie now

lol it is kinda funny to see these old farts complaining that it pandered to fanboy fetishes too much but at the same time didn't pander to their specific fanboy fetish enough

lol Doctor Make-it-up-as-we-go

saw this in an absolutely sold out packed theater in SF at noon, great fun, I thought it was all it could have been and then some. Theater got a great Strax intro where he told people to turn their phones off and talked about popcorn screaming as it is eaten, plus a nice tennant/smith pair up describing 3d with barbs about chins and wrinkly old lines. Special itself was wonderful. But, who was the scientist girl? who was her sister supposed to have been? where did she get the scarf? I thought at the end perhaps from Baker's Doctor, but...

also downloaded 5(ish) doctors, also a wonderful little piece; particularly liked the Shada/5 Doctors Baker fly in. That should make it to the blu ray. McGann obviously was never on the set with them at the same time.

also, there seems to be an awfully big gulf between 'name of the doctor' and this. how come clara doesn't remember Hurt? what happened after that?

OK I got really choked up during the Doctor roll call. Am I right to assume that Nine was archival footage?

yeah if you saw the behind the scenes thing they were all stand ins wearing blank masks and the faces were cgi-ed on. Not a bad job on him 9th and some of the others; 8 was awful though, head is entirely too big. Not sure why they didn't get him in to do it himself but I guess he wasn't around right then

Ah, I didn't see that! (Also was in SF last night, didn't seem to realize that I should've stayed to catch this in theaters.)

where did she get the scarf?

Well, that was Tom Baker's scarf, yes?

also, there seems to be an awfully big gulf between 'name of the doctor' and this. how come clara doesn't remember Hurt? what happened after that?

I thought she passed out before the Hurt reveal, or something. Anyway, her timeline probably got out of sync, she wouldn't have remembered otherwise, then she became a motorcycle-riding teacher. /handwave

"didn't seem to realize that I should've stayed to catch this in theaters"

it was incredibly sold out and an insane understaffed madhouse. fun though to see so many people in costume in a downtown mall. my son wore his customary bow tie and tweed (he's 7) and got some nice compliments (although it always makes him uncomfortable). the best was a stringy haired sales associate in Nordstrom who asked "are you having a good day? Have a happy 50th!" to him out of the blue.

Also, although I never hated Clara to the extent that everyone else apparently does, I have to think she was pretty good in this. She didn't really do very much but when she was on screen I never found her grating.

despite various shittiness I enjoyed this (drunk).

do have a bit of an issue with all the laser guns and destroying gallifrey with a big bomb - the doctor has always been odysseus rather than hector, escaping his strange worlds and alien creatures with cunning rather than force - particularly apposite comparison for this specific episode, searching for home.

also p meh about the zygons, MORE shape shifting human imitators providing a thin plot to support the main (plotless) idea. Let zygons be zygons.

time lords were shit and boring and not at all dreadful.

HOWEVER

heart definitely beat faster at the whole 13 doctors/multiple tardises stuff
enjoyed doctor bantz
tom baker.

L4wr3nc3 M1l3s provided the biggest lols associated with the show on Twitter:

This show made me feel like I was 13 years old again...
On the week of my 13th birthday, Timelash was broadcast.

If it hasn't been explained so far geeky girl with Tom Baker scarf was daughter of UNIT's Brigadier, a character featured in Troughton/Pertwee/Baker era. He has also been refered to in both Tennant & Smith eras. A letter was sent to him at his nursing home only to find he'd died.
I think blonde woman was her prettier sister which I think was refered to causing a complex.

I thought Carla less annoying than usual too. Wonder how long they'll keep her with Capaldi?

I was wondering what the story was with the absence of a Dalton character, but not watched that story in too long to remember details. So wondered if that was a rogue council or something.

I'm confused about timing with casting of Hurt. It seems like an age since the big reveal at the end of the series. Was Eccleston at one point supposed to appear then.
Assumed that 50th special was filmed since then.

I was just thinking that Eccleston hadn't wanted to be involved since he quit. So surprised that he had been supposed to be involved. Was his absence just down to a timing clash with filming Thor? &he's not recognisable in that.

I did like the return of Billie Piper. Thought it played well.

Not a massive fan of Stacey as Liz or the marriage thereof. Guess it was fun to an extent? Cant remember if Liz1 has appeared in previous 50 years at all, has she?

geeky "lols asthma' girl played by Ingrid Oliver (marginally better known as part of a comedy double act). i might have to rewatch, but didn't they say something right at the start to imply the CURRENT brig (whose phone she had) was her mum - making her Alistair's grand-daughter?

I thought Carla less annoying than usual too.

me too, but i assume it's because she didn't really do anything.

If it hasn't been explained so far geeky girl with Tom Baker scarf was daughter of UNIT's Brigadier, a character featured in Troughton/Pertwee/Baker era.

No, the new leader of the UNIT, the blonde woman, was the daughter of Brigadier. (She had appeared previously in "The Power of Three".) They called the scientist woman "Osgood", and there was no implication he was related to the other woman. The scene where the Zygon referred to her inferiority complex w/r/t her sister was there just to illuminate how extensively the Zygons could imitate a person, and maybe also to provide a bit of characterization for her. (I guess she could become a supporting character in the next series?) I don't think her sister was supposed to be anyone we know.

I have had no problem with the actor who plays Clara, but IMO as a character she's even flatter than Amy Pond was; she hasn't been given any proper characterization of her own, she's just there to anchor and/or save the Doctor. One of the best things about Rose was that she was given a supporting cast and a life of her own outside the Doctor's hijinks, which made her feel more credible and rounded. They did that with Martha and Donna too, but to a lesser extent; any invidual character moments the companions might've had seem to have been gradually cut down, until we come to Clara, who has none.

Btw, can some explain why the Doctor said he'd been working for the UNIT "in the seventies or maybe the eighties"? This is the second time in the new series that he can't quite recall what decade it was, and I assume it's some kind of an inside joke, but I haven't seen any of those old Who episodes, so I don't get the joke?

i just checked the scene at the start and osgood shouts "mum, mum" when handing back Kate's phone - so yes, Osgood is the original brig's grand daughter

Why is she called "Osgood", then? I guess she could be married...

maybe it's ma'am then?

(OTOH why would she have her boss's personal phone.)

I dunno, if the character was her daughter, wouldn't the reference to that besided calling her "mum" once? So I think "ma'am" makes more sense.

"wouldn't there be some reference to that"

I have had no problem with the actor who plays Clara, but IMO as a character she's even flatter than Amy Pond was; she hasn't been given any proper characterization of her own, she's just there to anchor and/or save the Doctor. One of the best things about Rose was that she was given a supporting cast and a life of her own outside the Doctor's hijinks, which made her feel more credible and rounded. They did that with Martha and Donna too, but to a lesser extent; any invidual character moments the companions might've had seem to have been gradually cut down, until we come to Clara, who has none.

― Tuomas, Sunday, 24 November 2013 21:39 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

extending that: we usually see events through the eyes of a companion, but this year we've been seeing clara through the eyes of the doctor, and the doctor through the eyes of nobody. there's no alice.

Was the Earth that Pertwee was stranded on contemporary to the time it was made or somewhat in the future? That was filmed in the 70s anyway.

Not sure what involvement he had with UNIT after he became Peter Davidson, do know that Baker had some involvement. & is it UNIT that Martha wound up with during the Tennant era?

She turns up in The Shakespeare Code, all upset when she finds out the Doctor is there. I suppose this explains why.

Reading the Bleeding Cool '50 Things' piece, they speculate that scarf girl is Kate's daughter that she has with a UNIT technician from The Daemons (based on her surname). That would explain why she's so maternal about making sure the girl has her inhaler.

Now I get why the Zygon resolution doesn't need explaining, apparently it's a tool taught to philosophy student to help them solve equality arguments?

I should have picked it up, but of course the 'live things in paintings' plot is lifted wholesale from Nightmare of Eden.

The biggest thing they have destroys the whole plot though:

The Doctors that escape from the painting in the Black Archive are really the Doctors, yes? They're not a facsimile, not a replica, it's really them. Really, really them.

Then so is Arcadia in that picture. And all the Gallifreyans and Daleks in it.

What stops them getting out or being taken out by the Doctor, restoring Arcadia anew and not being lost?

Does that mean Arcadia isn't in the Gallifrey saved by the 13 Doctors (and by extension all the Gallifreyans and Daleks in it), or are there now two sets of Arcadia and all the Gallifreyans and Daleks?

Actually, the hidden Gallifrey still has all the Daleks that were on the planet when it was hidden and the Daleks were winning the ground war as we see it, so in 400 years they've undoubtedly won and so the hidden Gallifrey is now a Dalek planet. (Oh noes, I can see "you know what would be cool" and it being Skaro in the future....)

The 70s/80s thing is an in-joke about the UNIT Dating Conroversy.

(She in the first one of those is QE1)

("Controversy" in the second)

Now I get why the Zygon resolution doesn't need explaining, apparently it's a tool taught to philosophy student to help them solve equality arguments?

Yeah, I thought of "veil of ignorance" when I watched the scene, but I wasn't sure if the reference was intentional... Maybe it was?

The 70s/80s thing is an in-joke about the UNIT Dating Conroversy.

Which is what?

(yeah, i totally take it back it makes no sense as mum - all sense as ma'am. idiot me)

70s 80s UNIT dataing controversy mostly centres on the events of Mawdryn Undead which dates the UNIT stories very clearly as pre-77, and some earlier references in the actual UNIT stories as being in the 80s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIT_dating_controversy#UNIT_dating

Well there's this thing called the internet. You might have heard of it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIT#UNIT_dating

The Doctors that escape from the painting in the Black Archive are really the Doctors, yes? They're not a facsimile, not a replica, it's really them. Really, really them.

Then so is Arcadia in that picture. And all the Gallifreyans and Daleks in it.

No, I don't think they are in the painting. The Zygons and the Doctors used it to preserve themselves, but there was no implication that whatever the Doctors did to Gallifrey was the same trick. (Assumably one painting can only hold a finite amount of people, not billions of them.) If it was, the Doctor would already know how to bring Gallifrey back, so there would've been no need for his final monologue, where he says he'll try to figure out how to revive it. Also, the painting shows both Time Lords and Daleks, but only the Time Lords were preserved by the Doctors, it was explicitly told that the Daleks would blow each other to pieces.

They do say it's the same trick, Hurt picks up the Make The Picture Cube when he thinks of it.

That just means the painting inspired them to pull a similar trick, but it's never said that it's the same trick, nor that everyone's stored inside the painting. (Like I said, the Doctor's final speech wouldn't make sense if they are.)

Actually, the hidden Gallifrey still has all the Daleks that were on the planet when it was hidden and the Daleks were winning the ground war as we see it, so in 400 years they've undoubtedly won and so the hidden Gallifrey is now a Dalek planet. (Oh noes, I can see "you know what would be cool" and it being Skaro in the future....)

The ground Daleks wouldn't have their support troops and ships in space anymore though, could they still win the Time Lords without them?

Also when the Doctors are in the picture Gallifreyans and Daleks be running round screaming and shit so they are as real IN the picture as the Doctors therefore we have to assume as real when they are captured by whatever mechanism captures the Doctors. And the Dalek that gets blown out is certainly real.

They don't however say that Gallifrey Falls / No More is the captured image that the Doctors make.

Really not sure how this would make any sense with Ecclestone as Hurt - I can't quote chapter and verse but I think all through Ecclestone's year it was made clear that he was the one after the Doctor that killed everyone - the big reveal in The Name of the Doctor was that it was Hurt instead of McGann. Also he doesn't have any more connection to Rose Tyler than Hurt does, at this point.

Xpost to Tuomas

Seriously? You can't parse that the scarf girl is Kate's daughter even when she calls her mum, but you can create an entire new solution to resolve the plot which is never mentioned or even hinted at because otherwise a bit of dialogue wouldn't make sense?

Of course the ground Daleks would win - in something as basic as Dalek it's explicit a single Dalek could over-run the Earth army, and the Gallifreyan army is shown as being over-run as well. The actor in the 'no more' scene explains in this and in the Last Day minisode that the soldiers left are really only rough and ready recruits because they've run out of actual soldiers - it's actually supposed to be his first day of duty having only just completed basic training, and here he is defending the most important city in the final battle.

Andrew

They come out of it in the Black Archive, and Smith tells the technician to move it into the Black Archive once they have put themselves in it. Logically the easiest solution would have been for them to have been the ones to have created it and put it in the portrait gallery in the first place.

Alternatively, somebody exists in space and time who used Gallifreyan technology to capture the Fall of Arcadia and make a picture who isn't a Gallifreyan (because he would have been in the time war) or a Gallifreyan (because he would have been hidden with Rassilon) or a Gallifreyan (because he would have been hidden in the Doctor's new Maguffin).

Also, with capaldi enigmatically saying 'THIRTEEEEEEN' and hurt being acknowledged as ~the~ ~doctor~, does that mean smith is #12 now?

― Autumn Almanac, Saturday, 23 November 2013 22:54 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Isn't that one of the ornate time lords saying thirteen?

― Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 23 November 2013 22:57 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it sounded awfully like capaldi to me, but i'd have to go back to be sure tbh

― Autumn Almanac, Saturday, 23 November 2013 23:00 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It was Capaldi.

― ailsa, Saturday, 23 November 2013 23:09 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Okay, I think we're talking about different things then - at 1:06 it goes

10: You might say, I've been doing this all my lives.
1-9: Various recontextualised clips
Top Timelord: I didn't know when I was well off! All 12 of them!
Top Timelord's Exposition Sponge: No, sir... all 13!
<shot of lever being decisively thrown, slightly bloodshot eye under impressive eyebrows>

TTES is called 'Androgar' in the subtitles - TT is just called 'The General'

Hah Aldo you might want to pick a better opening gambit there..

? That's what actually happens. Not my fault the writers intends a wibbly wobbly handwave.

Er, no I mean that beating up Tuomas for jumping to the wrong conclusion works better if you don't start by claiming that the Osgood is clearly the Brigadier's granddaughter.

It's the interpretation most media sources seem to have taken and is explained in the show in a single line of dialogue. idgaf whether she is or not (because frankly the NuWho insistence on family/mummy issues doesn't interest me in the slightest) and I don't actually think it needs explaining any further than "she works for UNIT", but if she has to be *somebody* then there is a perfectly obvious explanation in the actual text.

I'm not arguing that the Doctor's aren't in the painting, I was trying (and probably failing) to address the idea that the Doctors' save Gallifrey by creating that painting.