Hommophobia inna dancehall style...

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labelling murder as evil is not some cirlicue of recent European liberal legal trends but is rooted in "Thou Shall Not Kill" (or a corruption or a misunderstanding or a oversimplification of the same). Which is a tad hypocritical, coming from a bible chock full of stories of the God of the Jews destroying loads of 'enemies of the chosen people'. The universal rule among civilisations of yesterday and today reads "Thou shalt not kill your own kind - if it's an enemy, an animal, a criminal, a plant, a slave, a subhuman, a threat, it's essentially OK".

Murder is only condemned when it upsets or damages the community. If it does not, society quickly comes up with euphemisms (= reducing cognitive dissonance).

Siegbran Hetteson, Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hold on - are you saying that indigenous tribes shouldn't be exposed to cultural products (i.e. Bible) because they might get bad ideas from them?

The phrase "exposed to cultural products" here is probably a little too weak. If I thwacked you in the face with my Louisville Slugger, would you say that you were "exposed to Clarke's bat"?

Clarke B., Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

No, but I dunno if I would write songs in praise of the bat manufacturer either

dave q, Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

one year passes...
OK, this is a weird and ugly thread to wake back up - it didn't get ugly at the time, but ilX0r is a different place now, so I'm hesitating. But I was just now listening to a wonderful internet radio station called Big Up Radio Dancehall and an Elephant Man song comes on, and I'm like, cool, several times in the past year I've looked at an Elephant Man record and thought "I should buy that, some of this dancehall stuff is beginning to get to me in a big way." And so I listen, and it's not just some anti-homosexual stuff: that's the whole damned song. "Me don't want no chi-chi mon friend, no/not gonna find me with no fassy-man friend, no" etc etc etc et fuckin' CETERA, calls for violence, non-stop stuff which if rendered in standard English would be: "I don't want any gay friends! Don't like the gay men!" etc. i.e. it'd be Skrewdriver, more or less.

And I was, like, kickass interesting rhythm or not, that's fuckin' bullshit.

That's about it.

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 2 July 2003 14:52 (twenty years ago) link

...and the worst thing about this shit is that the imbeciles who sing it are the loudest opposers of 'prejudice and oppression'.

Laughable.

russ t, Wednesday, 2 July 2003 15:07 (twenty years ago) link

It just really drives me nuts! 'Cause this is some of the best, most interesting music around, to my ears, and I'm not asking 'em to sing about peace and social justice or anything: I just can't get my muthafukkin' groove on to some guy saying "kill all the fags" over and over!

Damn it!

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 2 July 2003 15:27 (twenty years ago) link

can you recommend any non-gay bashing dancehall? I too am interested in it but have no idea where to start.

lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Wednesday, 2 July 2003 16:03 (twenty years ago) link

if you got a fast enough connection you can just listen to http://www.bigupradio.com/ - I've been listening to it all morning

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 2 July 2003 16:30 (twenty years ago) link

there was a big to-do at wesu when i was program director. one of the reggae djs (he was none-too-bright) kept playing all these virultently anti-gay songs on his show, which was on saturday afternoons when--it was pointed out by another reggae dj--lots of kids were listening. there was a big argument about whether we should tell the dj not to play such songs.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 2 July 2003 16:33 (twenty years ago) link

But this is sort of the way of the world musically. Dancehall homophobia is certainly an extreme example, but when I slake my guilty thirst for puerile current-issue pop-punka stuff, the unbelievably condescending/creepy fear-of-women stuff always makes me feel terrible after a while.

Perhaps part of the irritation with dancehall is that (unlike, say, pop-punka stuff) is that, aside from some astonishingly awful views on social issues, it could be so good -- both musically and sociopolitically.

Ess, Wednesday, 2 July 2003 16:50 (twenty years ago) link

Why can't pop-punka stuff be equally that good? And who's to say it hasn't?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 2 July 2003 16:55 (twenty years ago) link

Why can't pop-punka stuff be equally that good? And who's to say it hasn't?

I'm assuming you mean "Who's to say pop-punka stuff hasn't been that good?" No one's to say that in any objective way. It has been really good. But on a personal level, it doesn't give me chills the way good dancehall does. And its more retrograde (jesus, there's an irritating word) tendencies don't bother me as much for that reason -- I don't care about it the same way I do about dancehall.

Ess (Ess), Wednesday, 2 July 2003 17:06 (twenty years ago) link

thanks for the revival didn't catch this the first time around.

when i used to listen to john peel he always used to play the odd dancehall track and he had the same problem so he always would listen out for gay basing stuff and he would only play the 'clean' stuff.

I think its all within the context of the song, you know (but maybe its just that i do have this thing where i don't know abt a lot of the terminology here and i'm poor at picking up on lyrics). I have enjoyed lots of what i've heard on the radio, the rhythms are quite something.

so what makes this diff from, say, gangsta rap. do ppl listen to one and not the other?

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 2 July 2003 17:11 (twenty years ago) link

amateurist - what was the outcome with the wanker DJ? Hope you got rid of him....

russ t, Thursday, 3 July 2003 08:32 (twenty years ago) link

As a pretty big dancehall fan and a white liberal, too, I feel I can comment on this reasonably well. Dave Q is making quite a few valid points here (and I usually disagree w/ him on most everything, plus my argument on Burzum's racism w/ Siegbran always falls down as soon as i begin to consider my longstanding LOVE for one of the most prejudiced, violent and all-round objectionable forms of music on the planet).
However, as usual, that damnable Mr Sinker has raised the most pertinent point before I got to the thread! Cultural imperialism is a vital issue here. In the first instance, if you look at the vast majority of imagery used in these batty-boy-bashing anthems, it's all about fires blazing, flames that "bun up di ch-chi man", it doesn't take spectacular interpretive skills to note that these are the classic signifiers of Judeo-Christian hell.
The idea of homosexuality as "sin" was brought to Jamaican society and continues to be reinforced by the Christian faith (Rastafari also Christianity), thus being the first instance of said cultural imperialism.
Secondly, anywhere is the world, poverty is the perfect environment for reactionary, fundamnentalist and hate-filled ideologies to flourish (cf northern English towns and the BNP, the massive rise of fascist groups in the former eastern bloc). Sadly it is human nature for the poor and disenfranchised to want a group to look down upon/castigate/transfer their anger to - in this instance, largely due to the doctrines of the various churches that hold huge influence over Jamaica's collective morality, homosexuals.
I think we would all agree that this is far from desirable, but bearing in mind the fact that the island is still a Third World country in close proximity to the comparatively ludicrous waelth of the US, you have to ask yourself if trying to impose another, equally rigid and equally prescribed value system upon a developing society only adhering to previously set Western moral criteria is not in fact just a case of suddenly moving the goalposts.
As I both DJ (select) and write about dancehall, I do avoid playing virulently homophobic records and when writing about it/interviewing generally call artists on it. In no sense is this being an apologist, it's simply not being so shortsighted/condescending that I expect everyone to have the same viewpoints as me *at exacly the same time*. Hopefully tolerance will be learned over time, but to expect a nation such as Jamaica to fall in line, lockstep with what is deemed "politically correct" in privileged nations such as Europe/the US is completely wrong.
If you refuse to understand this/reconcile yourself to hearing things you don't like in dancehall, the simple answer is not to listen to it. Also Norman C Stoltzoff writes pretty eloquently on this element of dancehall (the factors behind its most pervasive tropes and its function as a realm of dicourse, socio-political, religious and otherwise) in his book Wake The Town And Tell The People, it's well worth a read.

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:10 (twenty years ago) link

Just to muddy everything...


http://www.uk-dance.org/knowledge/social_aspects_of_music/000030.html

dave q, Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:19 (twenty years ago) link

That is total bollocks!!! Just looks at the lrics to TOK's Chi-Chi Man and tell me it's about the Prime Minister!

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:25 (twenty years ago) link

Intro:
Bassie:
My Crew (My Crew) my dogs (my dogs)
Set rules (Set rules) set laws (set laws)
We represent for di lords of yards
A gal alone a feel up my balls

Chorus:
From dem a par inna chi chi man car
Blaze di fire mek we bun dem!!!! (Bun dem!!!!)
From dem a drink inna chi chi man bar
Blaze di fire mek we dun dem!!!! (Dun dem!!!!)

Verse 1:
Craigy:
So mi go so, do yuh see weh I see???
Niggas when your doin that
Nuff a dem a freak dem a carry all dem dutty act
Thug nigga wanna bees nuff a dem a lick it back
It dem bring it to we, hold on nuff a cop a shot
Cop a shot rise up every calico go rat tat tat
Rat tat tat every chi chi man dem haffi get flat
Get flat, mi and my niggas ago mek a pack
Chi chi man fi dead and dat's a fact

Chorus:
From dem a par inna chi chi man car
Blaze di fire mek we bun dem!!!! (Bun dem!!!!)
From dem a drink inna chi chi man bar
Blaze di fire mek we dun dem!!!! (Dun dem!!!!)

Verse 2:
Flexx:
So mi go so la la la la la la la la la la la
Nah go mek nuh chi chi man walk right a so
>From a bwoy a deep we ago dun dem right now
Leff him whole family dem a blow wow

Alexx:
I see it from far mi and dem nah go par
A nuff a dem bwoy mi a smoke man cigar
Mi and dem coulda never inna wrong bar
Dem bwoy deh flex too bizarre

Chorus:
>From dem a par inna chi chi man car
Blaze di fire mek we bun dem!!!! (Bun dem!!!!)
>From dem a drink inna chi chi man bar
Blaze di fire mek we dun dem!!!! (Dun dem!!!!)

Repeat intro twice
Repeat Verse 1 till song end

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:31 (twenty years ago) link

sadly, it's a stunningly produced record...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:33 (twenty years ago) link

What do you think is worse, writing the song or lying about it?

dave q, Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:34 (twenty years ago) link

That article above looks like the usual "Oh, when we say 'faggot', we really mean 'bad man'!" excuses used by some US rappers!!! (Is this another example of this 'Western Cultural Imperialism' I keep reading about?!?!?)

Old Fart!!! (oldfart_sd), Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:37 (twenty years ago) link

ITS A SCNADAL I TELL YA!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:38 (twenty years ago) link

SCNADAL

Best word evah!

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:42 (twenty years ago) link

lying about it = worse coz that proves they *know* there's something to be ashamed of

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:45 (twenty years ago) link

dave (stelfox)-what has been the response of artists when you call them on the homophobia in the music?

this is an interesting topic,i'd love to see more discussion on this,although i'm not sure what i think myself

i don't see a huge difference between this and some of the more misogynist elements of rap- (wildflower by ghostface killah)


robin (robin), Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:48 (twenty years ago) link

generally pretty evasive but in some cases totally honest. but evading the question makes me think that repeated calling on it, criticism etc may well speed up some realisation. it has to be taken up and discussed in orgder for anyuthing to happen. i don't like it any more than anyone else but i can put up w/ it better than most and don't find it valid to slag off a genre just coz it don't fit *exactly* with my political leanings. the black metal burzum issue is different to me coz they exist in the same world as me and have absolutely no reason for their prejudices...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 10:59 (twenty years ago) link

So Dave, the question has to be asked - would you listen to music or musicians that virulently attacked blacks?
It's hardly a question of a slight misunderstanding or disagreement on political ideas, really, is it, as you seem to suggest in the last part of your post above?

russ t, Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:11 (twenty years ago) link

i think i qualified that with what i said abt burzum... answer's no

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:14 (twenty years ago) link

ok, everybody who own's a Rolling Stones record raise your hands

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:19 (twenty years ago) link

why, who do the Stones want to kill?

dave q, Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:20 (twenty years ago) link

it sounds like people are prepared to tolerate homophobia far more than racism (tho misogyny is still by far the most tolerable) whilst not becoming apologists. in the interests of objective criticism or art this is probably fair enough, especially when taking into account Jamaica's situation as described by Dave Stelfox. The attitude of tolerating dubious messages for the sake of great art whilst simultaneously working to eradicate the negative socio-cultural aspects tied to or disguised as religious beliefs in the music is probably the way to go. I'm inclined to believe things have actually improved regarding acceptance of gays and respect of women in certain genres, due to the pressure (in the BBC's documentary on reggae music last year I think it was pointed out that a lot of reggae/dancehall artists were having a rethink or at least toning down the hostile sentiments as it was damaging their sales outside of the Caribbean) - tho it may be wishful thinking to believe it could be eradicated completely within this century.

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:25 (twenty years ago) link

'as it was damaging their sales outside of the Caribbean'!!! who said capitalism and tolerance don't go together!

dave q, Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:28 (twenty years ago) link

The Burzum comparison is ridiculous. The Burzum guy says silly shit in interviews, but the actual music is either instrumental or incomprehensible. Whereas in the TOK song the silly shit is IN the lyrics (ie the most widely-exposed stuff), meanwhile he just mealymouths it in interviews. Maybe an academic distinction but ppl are talking about 'art' (ie the music) here

dave q, Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:34 (twenty years ago) link

ok i'll substitute burzum for skrewdriver, who appear to have a certain number of apologists on ilx, then it's exactly the same thing...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:35 (twenty years ago) link

plus does it matter that the artists' views are explicit in the case of tok and not in burzum's

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:37 (twenty years ago) link

and when i said apologists in ref to skrewdriver, i guess that was a bit strong...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:38 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah Skrewdriver is a better comparison, but really, they're one of those phenomena that have about 1000 detractors for each 'one' who takes them seriously or even likes them, they've become kind of a Stepin Fetchit caricature of some people's idea of the 'white working class', they're firmly in the nutball corner, which isn't to say that's not where they belong, but that's where they are

dave q, Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:43 (twenty years ago) link

One good thing about dancehall (just the one, mind...)... it's hardly offensive when the poor guys can't even speak or write English, is it? I mean, those lyrics - please. Toe curling.

russ t, Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:48 (twenty years ago) link

it's patois you pillock! it's a different language - that's like saying serge gainsbourg is shite coz not singing in english! ;-)

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 July 2003 11:53 (twenty years ago) link

Patois is a bastardisation of the English language - I don't recognise it. Like Americanisation of English.... no go.

russ t, Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:19 (twenty years ago) link

would 'love' to hear more dancehall tracks in a reserved eloquent English accent...

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:27 (twenty years ago) link

'no go'!?? what is that, japanese?

dave q, Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:28 (twenty years ago) link

but i'm sure patois is a combination of defiant, nay, proud bastardisation of 'da Queen's English' and a consequence of the nature of Jamaican accents (sounding very much like an American-style broadening of African accents) in terms of pronunciation quirks and cadence. it darts haphazardly between fun and annoying for me to listen to, but i'll have you know i can do great impressions of Sean Paul and Glamma Kid when very very drunk.

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:31 (twenty years ago) link

russ is a morrissey so his views aren't surprising.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:36 (twenty years ago) link

morrissey fan, that is.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:38 (twenty years ago) link

hahah, Julio is a morrissey

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:39 (twenty years ago) link

dancehall rocks, you are all morrisseys

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:39 (twenty years ago) link

russ is an imperialist

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:40 (twenty years ago) link

you are all a bunch capitalist-imperialist russ twats!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:46 (twenty years ago) link

russ you're wrong about patois, I mean wrong from a linguistic standpoint: it's not a bastardisation, it's a mutant. Back away from that position or go back to writing in runes.

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 3 July 2003 12:47 (twenty years ago) link

smgdh

The Reverend, Wednesday, 23 May 2012 21:27 (eleven years ago) link

one month passes...

it got kind of buried under the anderson cooper and frank ocean stories, but diana king ("shy guy") came out of the closet this week, too

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/05/diana-king-comes-out-jama_n_1652189.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

radical ferry (donna rouge), Friday, 6 July 2012 16:42 (eleven years ago) link

cool.

chain the color of am0n (The Reverend), Friday, 6 July 2012 16:53 (eleven years ago) link

I like her description of homophobia as a "heavy burden".

chain the color of am0n (The Reverend), Friday, 6 July 2012 17:05 (eleven years ago) link


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