Is Rakim possibly the best rapper

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I think you could make a strong case for peak-period Ice Cube (from NWA through Death Certificate).

I wouldn't say so, he's a great storyteller but his flow isn't particularly impressive, it always sounds kinda same.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 11 December 2003 13:32 (twenty years ago) link

I don't know what you mean by flow (I've always liked his delivery), but I think a young Ice Cube is just jaw dropping, sooo strong, so much charisma, angry, witty, poignant, sad - the Johnny Rotten of gangsta rap.....his performcances on Straight Outta Compton and Americakka's Most Wanted, and Kill at Will are perfect....Also, alot of rappers always sound the same....Rakim uses the same type of flow alot (esp. nowadays), so did Kool G Rap.....I don't think always using a certain type flow is bad....Also, compare his verse of Straight Outta Compton to Dead Homiez or his verse in Burn, Hollywood Burn to It Was a Good Day....I don't think they sound the same at all.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 11 December 2003 16:46 (twenty years ago) link

I've always wondered how you define best. Is it lyrical complexity? Flow? Drama? Storytelling? Freestyling ability? Emotional force? Surely it's sheer listenability. I can listen to Ghostface Killah/Method Man/Big Boi/early Ice Cube for hours, even though there are technically better MCs out there. And I never fail to be impressed by people rapping REALLY FAST. I heard Blackalicious's Alphabet Aerobics again the other day and it's astonishing, even though I suspect it's the rapping equivalent of an Yngwie Malmsteen guitar solo.

― Shangri-La (Shangri-La), Thursday, 11 December 2003 17:57 (twenty years ago) link

Contenders not yet mentioned...

Big Daddy Kane
GZA
Redman
Big L (well, could've been...)
Scarface

For an entire body of work, Jay-Z is, for me, the most consistent/listenable/enjoyable/what-have-you. There's the typical ILM response someone asked for earlier in the thread.

― Adam Harrison-Friday, Friday, 12 December 2003 01:00 (twenty years ago) link

Have you all forgotten... Guru? You know, the guy with
the best monotone in rap, spittin' over Premier's
world-class productions. That Guru. First three
Gang Starr albums are nearly untouchable, with
nary a filler track on 'em.

― Dave Segal (Da ve Segal), Friday, 12 December 2003 02:37 (twenty years ago) link

Guru is decent/mediocre/adequate, and nothing more. If he never hooked up with Premo, I doubt any of us would've heard about him.

Big L would definitely be in my Top 5.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 12 December 2003 08:31 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah I'm no expert but it seems like "best monotone in rap" has a bit of a built-in disadvantage.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 12 December 2003 09:22 (twenty years ago) link

"best one-fingered guitarist"

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 12 December 2003 10:59 (twenty years ago) link

What of O.C.? Anyone remember "Time's Up"????? A certified classic!

― herbalizer12 (herbalizer12), Friday, 12 December 2003 13:35 (twenty years ago) link

Big Daddy Kane - RAW

― Chris B. Sure (Chris V), Friday, 12 December 2003 13:55 (twenty years ago) link

Lets not forget MC Milk or MC Serch......

― Chris B. Sure (Chris V), Friday, 12 December 2003 13:56 (twenty years ago) link

More Slick Rick love please!

I'm not sure that "wordplay" is any more or less of a positive quality than flow or rythmic sensibility. Certain MCs who are famed for their "wordplay" tend to grate in their eagerness to please the teacher (Kweli, anyone?), whereas someone with a totally unique voice (Snoop, Dizzee, Redman) can get away with all kinds of shit. Ludacris, when he's good, is probably the best of both worlds.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 15:02 (twenty years ago) link

Kweli's got very good rhythm and style though, and a very distinct voice! WTF?

Premier can make any MC sound good. He makes good MCs (Guru, Ill Bill fr'instance) sound great. He makes great MCs (like um I dunno NAS) sound fanfuckingtastic. I can't wait to hear the track(s) he produced on Cee-Lo's next album.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 12 December 2003 15:12 (twenty years ago) link

And Kool G Rap is definitely way overlooked all the time. He's got one of the only decidedly cool-sounding lisps in hip-hop (that I can remember at the mo', anyway).

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 12 December 2003 15:15 (twenty years ago) link

I've never understood why anyone considers Jay-Z to be the best MC of this or any other time - I mean, I love a load of his stuff but the actual rapping is often the least engaging thing about his music, it often sounds a bit ponderous to me.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 12 December 2003 15:18 (twenty years ago) link

Nick, do Primus also have rhythm and style? ;)

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 15:19 (twenty years ago) link

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000063BPE.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 15:21 (twenty years ago) link

>I've never understood why anyone considers Jay-Z to be the >best MC of this or any other time - I mean, I love a load of his >stuff but the actual rapping is often the least engaging thing >about his music, it often sounds a bit ponderous to me.

I think he can talk about the same topics with consistently interesting vocabulary, never mind his presence, flow, and how enjoyable he is to listen to. Can't be beat on punchlines and he's made at least three excellent albums. If you use Kool Moe Dee's report card for him I think he'd rank near the top of most lists. Though it's a personal thing... I just go back to his stuff, get more out of it, and enjoy a lot of it, more than I can say for a lot of artists. I think the persona he's created makes him more interesting and reveals more as you listen to him. Oh yeah, he's also unbeatable on punchlines. Plus you can argue he got better as he went along. He's a special case. One final thing: he can go from believing he's untouchable to throwing in jokes on tracks and having fun. As you can see, there's something that makes him more interesting to me than most others.

― Adam Harrison-Friday, Friday, 12 December 2003 19:10 (twenty years ago) link

Kool Moe ranked himself
over L.L. Cool J, so
it's clearly bullshit.

having said that now,
Adam you've just made a real
good case for Jay-Z!

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 12 December 2003 19:18 (twenty years ago) link

it occurs to me
that no one has said "L.L."
yet, so I will here.

that guy had a streak
that no one has touched on earth:
albums 1-4

sure his later stuff
is more hit and miss, but still
he deserves respect

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 12 December 2003 19:27 (twenty years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Rakim was the best of his tim yes and is still one of the greatest ever but Biggie and Pac in my opinion were the 2 best , but you also got Big L Harlems finest , the best out there today is betweene Em and 50

― Buddy Robertson, Monday, 5 January 2004 18:45 (twenty years ago) link

the people saying slick rick over rakim are the people who are right. the one saying kool g rap is the most shamefully overlooked, thats right too. pharoahe monch is the greatest ever in terms of virtuoso like abilities, he can do the things no one else can like a hendrix type person.

― luk2, Tuesday, 6 January 2004 12:02 (twenty years ago) link

E-40

― peckham rye, Tuesday, 6 January 2004 12:09 (twenty years ago) link

two months pass...

your fuckin kidding me right fuck rahkim when it comes to to sheer lyrics and medafors but ma nigga styles got the hood and the flow on lock and that nigga casidy is a up and coming problem for all u sucka ass old school fans that shit is dead move on!!!!

― oc12, Friday, 12 March 2004 14:09 (twenty years ago) link

and that nigga casidy is a up and coming problem for all u sucka ass old school fans

I really like imagining that there's a bunch of old-school fans huddled together in a dark basement somewhere discussing threats to the hegemony - "OK, what are we gonna do about Cassidy, if he keeps making good records our plans for Old School World Domination are gonna be in some deep shit - Mikhail! dig up some dirt on this Cassidy fellow while I listen to this Ultramagnetic MC's 12" I copped on eBay"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 12 March 2004 14:30 (twenty years ago) link

"Ho...tel...mo...tel...holidae INNNNN"
"sayWHAT?!"

Cassidy is clearly the GOAT.

― djdee2005, Friday, 12 March 2004 15:54 (twenty years ago) link

" If Skills sold truth/ truth be told/ I would probably be/ Lyrically Talib Kweli/ Truthfully I wanna rhyme like common sense/ Be I did five mill/ And Ain't been rapping like common since" I think that Jay-Z should considered one of the best rappers ever. I love Nas, Pac, Em, and the rest but Jay stuck to his style for eight years and made eight albums with 4 classics.
1. Reasonable Doubt
2. Vol 2. Hard Knock Life
3. The Blueprint
4. The Black Album

― Chris Matthews, Saturday, 13 March 2004 21:14 (twenty years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Tupac #1, Biggie #2, Rakim #3, Krs-1 #4, Kool G Rap #5, Nas #6, Mos Def #7, Royce the 5'9 #8, Eminem #9, O.C. #10. This is the most accurate list, well b/c its mine, but b/c it includes lyrical prowess, influence, and the ability to strive through changes in the game and survive critics who keep hating. I know my shit, and I might not be totally right in this, but all things said, I am pretty damn close...

― Jeff Anderson, Sunday, 28 March 2004 06:44 (twenty years ago) link

lyrical prowess, influence, and the ability to strive through changes in the game and survive critics who keep hating.

2pac at number one?!

― djdee2005, Sunday, 28 March 2004 08:00 (twenty years ago) link

KRS-1 #4 ?????

― The Rebukes of Hazard (mjt), Sunday, 28 March 2004 08:24 (twenty years ago) link

KRS-1 #4 ?????

How is this unbelievable, by the standards he listed?

― djdee2005, Sunday, 28 March 2004 09:03 (twenty years ago) link

I like Jeff Anderson's list. That is a very good list. It's probably pretty close to the truth. Oh well.

― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 28 March 2004 12:17 (twenty years ago) link

Hmm, Tupac is definitely underrated, but to rate him the best rapper of all time is kinda bold.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Sunday, 28 March 2004 12:38 (twenty years ago) link

I always found it difficult for me personally to say who is the greatest rapper of all time. Every rapper had different styles. They are many underrated rappers like BIG L, Kool G Rap, KRS-ONE, Talib Kweli, Common, Royce da 5'9", and many members of Wu-Tang. Jeff Anderson's was good, but why Royce and Mos ahead of Eminem. If you put Mos in there you have to add Talib. Big L defintely belongs in the top 10 in every list I believe like he said "how come you can listen to my first album you can tell where a lot of niggas got there style from" I think he was referring to Jay-Z, correct me if I'm wrong. 2pac was a great rapper, but I don't remember him as a rapper, but more as a person. What Pac stood for and what he believed in he was an activist and realized rap was away to address the public. Now onto Rakim, he was a different sound to use the metaphors in such complex ways was unheard of. A lot of rappers took Rakims style of rhyming like Nas and AZ (another unknown). Rakim is one of the greatest because I see it as this if you give credit to Nas it first has to go through Rakim, but Rakim taught Nas a lot of about spitting. I think the best has to broken into categories like the best story teller I believe is Biggie because the way he did it. So if you want to say who's the best you have to say it in there category.

― Sdot, Monday, 29 March 2004 00:15 (twenty years ago) link

haha "influence"--greatest-rapper-of-all-time lists are so rockist

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 29 March 2004 05:55 (twenty years ago) link

If you put Mos in there you have to add Talib.

er, no you don't

― oops (Oops), Monday, 29 March 2004 07:48 (twenty years ago) link

#1 Egyptial Lover
#2 Apache Indian
#3 Black Rob

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 29 March 2004 13:19 (twenty years ago) link

krs isn't #1! oh wait, i'm sorry i lied.

he's #'s 1 2 3 4 and 5.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 13:30 (twenty years ago) link

(not really)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 13:31 (twenty years ago) link

Maybe if we had one of those things like Leela from Futurama where we could determine an MC's mad rhyme-busting success rate ("I believe that qualifies as ill")

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Monday, 29 March 2004 14:28 (twenty years ago) link

This thread (esp. Jeff Anderson's list, stodgy almost to the point of self-parody) proves most everything I said on the thread below:

Technique in Rap and Rock

― chuck, Monday, 29 March 2004 14:44 (twenty years ago) link

'stodgy to the point of self parody'??? what the fuck does that mean?
my list goes:
1.2 Pac
2.Mannie Fresh
3.Bun B
4.Jadakiss
5.Eminem
6.Lil Wayne
7.Snoop
8.E40
9.Lil Keke
10.Nas

― jack who, take what, Monday, 29 March 2004 14:56 (twenty years ago) link

"'stodgy to the point of self parody'??? what the fuck does that mean?"

Start with mikestands up rectums. And then work from there.

(You also might wanna check that link.)

― chuck, Monday, 29 March 2004 15:01 (twenty years ago) link

"Hmm, Tupac is definitely underrated"

By who? And COMPARED to who? Jeff Buckley???

― chuck, Monday, 29 March 2004 15:31 (twenty years ago) link

(You also might wanna check that link.)

Dude Mannie Fresh was #2 on his list...

Also I still think you are approaching hip-hop with a different system of values (and I'm not talking about supremacy of technique here) than myself. And I don't think its fair to say that anyone who disagrees with you that L'Trimm is one of the best hip-hop acts of the 80s is a technique-obsessed rockist.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 16:57 (twenty years ago) link

The list I called stodgy didn't have Mannie Fresh on it, DJdee. (I didn't mind that other one; e.g., I DO think Lil Wayne is underrated.)

― chuck, Monday, 29 March 2004 17:18 (twenty years ago) link

I'm down with anybody who can rap about Baudelaire...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Monday, 29 March 2004 17:33 (twenty years ago) link

You'd like Peter Laughner, then! (And Serge Gainsbourg, maybe.)

― chuck, Monday, 29 March 2004 17:36 (twenty years ago) link

In fact, Chuck, I do! I've taken the guitar player for a ride!

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Monday, 29 March 2004 17:55 (twenty years ago) link

you might really like royce, chuck! maybe you'd like his earlier party-rap even more. The trackmasterz produced "you can't touch" is great on that style. Also everyone else who hears about royce will like him too, so you should run a review, nudgenudge.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 18:14 (twenty years ago) link

Skipping 64 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

so exactly why did they bother putting Eric B's name on anything?

still find 2/3rds of the beats on Follow the Leader to be terrible tbh

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 10 December 2014 18:18 (nine years ago) link

Lol shut up

― bamcquern, Wednesday, 10 December 2014 18:34 (nine years ago) link

I am digging the 18th Letter tho, he's good with that trad boom bap style underneath him

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 10 December 2014 22:24 (nine years ago) link

nine years pass...

https://x.com/fakeshoredrive/status/1734721230534590469?s=20

― underwater as a compliment (Eazy), Wednesday, 13 December 2023 06:00 (four months ago) link

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Is Rakim possibly the best rapper - ever?