In Damnation of...<i>Horses</i> by Patti Smith

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Nevermind clearly benefits from THIS WAS IMPORTANT AT THE TIME syndrome though.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

so does the Sex Pistols.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

Yeah that's obviously the best case of a record whose sociological impact FAR FAR outweighs its sonic quality.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

nevermind the beatles

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:48 (9 years ago) Permalink

This is a great thread.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 03:10 (9 years ago) Permalink

Only because of the Jewish vaginas

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 03:35 (9 years ago) Permalink

Definitely overrated. What I don't really understand is why it isn't very good.

― aldkfh (maryann), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 04:51 (9 years ago) Permalink

Those last three albums aren't the slightest bit important. >>

None of 'em are, except in terms of sales and giving college kids something new to toss up on their walls, not to mention aged rock critics something to stroke their chins over and pontificate at length about the new sounds in r'n'r/hip hop, what have you.

― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:01 (9 years ago) Permalink

I mean I can listen to Nevermind all the way through and have a good time at least, but important?

I can't even get through the other three even halfway.

― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:02 (9 years ago) Permalink

HORSES RULEZ U ALL HAVE VAGINAS

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:09 (9 years ago) Permalink

Patti Smith is just awful, perhaps the most pretentious rock singer ever. I can't believe she's ever refered to as punk -- she has much more in common with Jim Morrison or even Leonard Cohen. Anthony and Alex very wrong about the Sex Pistols however.

― Burr (Burr), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:19 (9 years ago) Permalink

Anti-semite.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:28 (9 years ago) Permalink

She has a moustache, minus 2 points

She contributed to one of the 5 or 6 decent songs REM managed to put together over their shabby past ten years, plus 3

Blue Oyster Cult! plus 25.

But I still don't like her so much, at least Horses I mean.

― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:33 (9 years ago) Permalink

Love her! With the caveat that I don't think I've ever listened to "Birdland" all the way through. Her Jim Morrison side gets me down, but her Mick Jagger side lifts me up and her jesus-died-for-somebody's-sins-but-not-mine side makes me wanna holler.

― spittle (spittle), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 06:03 (9 years ago) Permalink

"pretentious" is NOT a pejorative, ppl!

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 06:49 (9 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, really - is there a more meaningless term? Does anyone seriously ascribe any critical saliency to that word? Aside from, like Holden Caulfield? What Burr fails to realize is that Smith's Morrison "side" (don't forget Dylan - he's pretty pretentious too! and so was Lou Reed!) is what makes her great.

and then she sings about doing the watusi and joe going to mexico and it all balances out. Everybody wins!

― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 07:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

Kim Fowley should've produced it

― dave q, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 08:33 (9 years ago) Permalink

I kinda agree with Alex - I'm not very keen on Patti. I didn't really get her then and I still don't. I find more than a few tracks of any of her albums like being trapped in a phone box with a ranting zealot - claustrophobic! I'm suspicious of any artist who's one of the 'she/he/they changed my life' bunch too. The tracks on Easter where Patti, Lenny and the boys stop *thinking* and make like they're in an NJ garage in 1964 are god - 25th Floor, Rock and Roll Nigger etc

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:09 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think her voice is the best thing abt it but there's no 'heat' from the band. Frank said i should listen to her first single, so I think I'll try and find this on slsk today.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:18 (9 years ago) Permalink

what artist isn't part of the "he/she/it changed my life" bunch?

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:27 (9 years ago) Permalink

i'm late to the party but I completely agree with Alex here. I must have tried a dozen times to 'get' this album, but it always came out dull. A few bland AM rock tunes...
Now, the only other Patti album I own and know, 'Peace & Noise' is pretty great though..

― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:36 (9 years ago) Permalink

I borrowed it from the library.

Hmmm. I guess you had to be there.

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:52 (9 years ago) Permalink

Early version of Title Track...

(Oh Horses, you´re so fine
you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses)
(Oh Horses, you´re so fine
you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses)
(Oh Horses, you´re so fine
you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses)
(Oh Horses, you´re so fine
you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses)
Hey Horses!
You´ve been around all night and that´s a little long
You think you´ve got the right but I think you´ve got it wrong
Why can´t you say goodnight so you can take me home, Horses
´Cause when you say you will, it always means you won´t
You´re givin´ me the chills, baby, please baby don´t
Every night you still leave me all alone, Horses
Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand
You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand
Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand
It´s guys like you Horses
Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses
Don´t break my heart, Horses
Hey Horses!
Now when you take me by the - who´s ever gonna know
Everytime you move I let a little more show
There´s somethin´ we can use, so don´t say no, Horses
So come on and give it to me any way you can
Any way you wanna do it, I´ll take it like a man
Oh please, baby, please, don´t leave me in the jam, Horses
Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand
You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand
Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand
It´s guys like you Horses
Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses
Don´t break my heart, Horses
(Oh Horses, you´re so fine
you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses)
(Oh Horses, you´re so fine
you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses)
(Oh Horses, you´re so fine
you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses)
(Oh Horses, you´re so fine
you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses)
Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand
You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand
Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand
It´s guys like you Horses
Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses
Don´t break my heart, Horses
Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand
You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand
Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand
It´s guys like you Horses
Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses
Don´t break my heart, Horses
Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand
You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand
Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand
It´s guys like you Horses
Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses
Don´t break my heart, Horses
Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand
You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand
Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand
It´s guys like you Horses
Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses
Don´t break my heart, Horses

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:57 (9 years ago) Permalink

I don't care what Michael Stipe says, or Bono, or anyone else (including Alex in NYC). This was a truly life-changing, life-saving record for me back then, and it still holds up as a glorious messy confluence of art-rock, proto-punk, Catholic-guilt, French-Romantic gutter-speak, and tender pissy defiance.

You know, those of us who have loved this record, either back in the day, or since (although especially back-in-the-day), simply cannot ditch its brilliance just because there's now a backlash to its canonisation.

That's what I think, anyway.

― David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 10:21 (9 years ago) Permalink

Above is my knee-jerk. Here's my reaction after reading the whole thread:

I mean, "pretentious"? WTF? Not only is "pretentious" not a pejorative, but with Leonard Cohen cited as an example of same, we're s'posed to somehow accept this bizarre conclusion? Len is also great, people!!!

There's something in that each-subsequent-record-gets-worse thing, though.

Easter is a very nice record (moments of beauty, but moments of intense awkwardness) that's not in the ballpark of Horses in terms of impact. Importance. Sigh. I don't really understand what "importance" means, objectively. Having said that, Gone Again is really the only other good Patti Smith album. Her output over a long career is patchy.

None of which takes away from the amazing Horses.

― David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 10:39 (9 years ago) Permalink

Why is it important anyway?

― Nu-Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 10:46 (9 years ago) Permalink

Because it's canonized?

But wait... wasn't it canonized 'cause it was deemed "important"?

Some love it, some hate it, some are indifferent. What's the answer? A show of hands? This "important" thing seems kind of, well... silly.

― David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 10:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

ALEX IN THA MUTHAFUCKING NYC:
Do ya or do ya not know Mrk Prindle, ya fokker? You should REALLY check out his review page.

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 11:52 (9 years ago) Permalink

I'm surprisingly fond of it. I think I listened to it at the exact right time for me to listen to it - early 20s, miserable but energetic, working in a bookshop (even that bookshop) not an office so I didn't need to feel defensive about it etc etc. - basically just vulnerable to Poetry In Rock or whatever it was Patti did. I know I will never enjoy it as much again and in fact I might well never listen to it again but I still like it.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:03 (9 years ago) Permalink

I like the cover more than the record

― The Spotlight Kid (kid), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:04 (9 years ago) Permalink

Holy crap! Toni Basil's Mickey is derived from Horses!!!

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:13 (9 years ago) Permalink

Len is also great, people!!!

Yeah, "You Can't Stop The Bum Rush" rules. I'd never established a connection between 'em and Patti Smith, but I guess "Horses" shares that chaotic throw-everything-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks mood that that album has.

What? Oh, Cohen. He's great too. "The Essential" rocked my Spring of 2003.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:27 (9 years ago) Permalink

I'm with the people who dig the Mick Jagger side, if I understand that correctly. What surprised me about this album on first listening to it were the pop songs - 'Redondon Beach', 'Free Monday', 'Kimberley', 'Break It Up' (I'd call 'em pop songs, anyway). Those are the ones that keep me coming back - those and 'Gloria', anyway. I could kinda take or leave most of the second side, with the exception of the version of 'My Generation' which ends the CD version, which might be better than anything on the album proper.

― Flyboy (Flyboy), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

It sounds better on vinyl.

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:47 (9 years ago) Permalink

if pissing in the river had been a sisters of mercy song it would be alex's favorite song. it is goth-rock greatness.(and it has great placement in the movie Times Square and that other one where cole hauser plays the scary boyfriend and that totally awesome girl from to die for dances around to it all sad in the riot grrrl's bedroom.) none of this has anything to do with horses.

― thiscorrosion, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 13:10 (9 years ago) Permalink

Alex, do you know fellow New Yorker Mark Prindle?

Afraid not. Should I?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:05 (9 years ago) Permalink

I mean, she rocks pretty hard for a chick.

I can't fucking handle it. Do me a favor, flush your head down the shitter for making such an ignorant, sexist statement.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:13 (9 years ago) Permalink

if pissing in the river had been a sisters of mercy song it would be alex's favorite song.

Dream on, Wrongboy.

Hey David A.....calm thyself. I'm not organizing a goon squad that's going to go around house-to-house, confiscating copies of Horses, just so we can start a big bonfire, Kilroy Was Here-stylee. I just think the album in question (Patti's, not Styx's) is an undeservedly lionized bit of pompous schlock.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:14 (9 years ago) Permalink

So is pompous not a pejorative either?

― Burr (Burr), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:26 (9 years ago) Permalink

well, lots of people like it apparently

so i'm asking, once again, why some people seem to want to go out of their way to malign Patti Smith ? this isn't the first thread to set out to dismiss not only this record but Smith herself.

why is it so important to dump on this relatively concise artist (she hasn't made many records and has admitted that it would be worse to make too many bad ones than vice versa) ?

(oh, ok, most people on this thread seem to like her, but that "Loathsome New Yorkers" thread, that just made the new yorkers that talked up the original tabloid week-end "feature" and it's readers appear to be the loathsome ones)

― george gosset (gegoss), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:27 (9 years ago) Permalink

Well, I'm damn well using it as a pejorative!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:28 (9 years ago) Permalink

see Total Eclipse Of The Heart thread, Burr

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:28 (9 years ago) Permalink

why is it so important to dump on this relatively concise artist

I don't think I'd have worded it quite that way, but fair enough.... because of the disparity between the quality of her work and the praise said work enjoys.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:36 (9 years ago) Permalink

Ahh, you should def. check out Mark Prindle's site then:
www.markprindle.com

― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:44 (9 years ago) Permalink

alright, alright I got it. I'll check it out.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

I was in art school in NYC when it came out, and you can't imagine the impact. It was a record that everybody had to have an opinion about. (Of course, a lot of people hated it even then.) Coming after the Stooges and the Dolls, I don't know if it was quite as groundbreaking as it's said to be, but it sure felt that way at the time. I still love it, but every year it feels more idiosyncratic and less "classic." Kind of like a female Captain Beefheart.

― Not that Chuck, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 17:20 (9 years ago) Permalink

>ps) Horses is also way better than any album that Sleater Kinney, Bjork, Tori Amos, Sinead Oconnor, or PJ Harvey ever did. So there.
So does that make Horses the best album recorded by someone with a vagina (or is there another connection between these artists that I am missing)? -- Alex in SF (clobberthesauru...), December 2nd, 2003.
I think it's just Chuck fighting the real enemy again, or something.<

Actually, I think all those artists were pretty clearly in Patti's lineage, and not just because they're women. But if it makes you any happier, *Horses* is *also* catchier, funnier, sexier, more rocking, and more memorable than any album that Tom Waits, Nick Cave, Radiohead, U2, REM, Pink Floyd, the Grateful Dead, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pavement, Roy Orbison, Bob Marley, Tupac, Boogie Down Productions, Tribe Called Qwest, the Misfits, Iron Maiden, the Smiths, or Sisters of Fucking Mercy ever made. Okay?

― chuck, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 18:09 (9 years ago) Permalink

No more horses horses

― David Eugene Vinson (Gaughin), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 18:16 (9 years ago) Permalink

Well, now that you put it that way, *Agents of Fortune* IS probably the best album with Patti ON it. (And that came AFTER *Horses*, wow!)

― chuck, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 18:29 (9 years ago) Permalink

From Metal Sludge's 20 Questions today with the drummer from Sum 41:

11. If you could put together the worst concert bill possible, what 5 bands would you put on it?
1.Jet
2.Journey
3.Patti Smith
4.Wham!
5.Glass Tiger

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 18:56 (9 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 81 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I like the song Horses, but the album as a whole is a bit meh.

― The Real Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 22:28 (5 years ago) Permalink

No! "Birdland" and "Kimberley" and "Gloria" redeem it for sure, I also like the rest of it but I am a rabid fan.

― sleeve, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 23:44 (5 years ago) Permalink

ps) Horses is also way better than any album that Sleater Kinney, Bjork, Tori Amos, Sinead Oconnor, or PJ Harvey ever did. So there.
So does that make Horses the best album recorded by someone with a vagina (or is there another connection between these artists that I am missing)?

best ilm zing ever

― J.D., Thursday, 25 October 2007 00:22 (5 years ago) Permalink

"gloria" and "horses" are both fantastic, but i wish the rest of the album sounded more like them. that one cod-reggae or something song is nearly unlistenable.

― J.D., Thursday, 25 October 2007 00:23 (5 years ago) Permalink

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In Damnation of...Horses by Patti Smith