This is the thread where we talk about Slavoj Zizek...

zizek has plenty of serious, substantive, and coherent ideas about, for starters, how political ideology functions.

the way we're talking about z. right now is a bit like the way athenians talked about socrates. they saw an ugly man, a freeloader, a defender of dictators, who postured in the city square and took impressionable young groupies to bed with him. this kind of misses out on whole swaths of the dude's thought though, no?

tldr: i think if you buy into the framework of what he's doing then the form of his method has precedence over the content of his writings (or that these two things are in a dialectical relationship of mutual destabilization).

― ryan, Monday, July 29, 2013 11:38 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i could not give a shit about the "form" of his utterances being "destabilizing" or other sorts of things academics and their avatars like to say to feel like they are doing political work when they are picking at their own asshole. like i said above, that's giving him far more credit for rocking the boat than he is due. zizek alternates between flattering and trolling a few 1,000 theoryheads and cult studies also-rans in such a way that keeps them buzzing about his sweaty brow. for everybody else he's, at best, an occasionally amusing irritant.

i don't expect to convince anyone in this thread and you won't convince me that zizek is worth the time of day.

Lacan goes on about this sort of thing all the time, actually.

tempted to write "i rest my case" TBF

what case? that you object to his demeanor on youtube?

?

it's a figure of speech

chomsky does a lot of butthole-picking too

max, did you read the part where i'm not defending chomsky? i haven't given more than half a shit about chomsky since i was 16.

also i'm not chiefly reacting to zizek's audiovisual presentation, though that certainly doesn't really aid him in my eyes. i'm reacting to the stuff i've read, which (again) is either just plain boring/heard-it-all-before or just transparently tendentious garbage. i'm referring to his film "criticism" and his political "criticism." and no, i haven't read it all or most of it. he's written like 600 books, why in god's name would i do that to myself?

i'ma leave this thread b/c i don't have much to contribute and what little i might have i'm just gonna be repeating until we're all sick to our stomachs.

xp to your question mark: well you've portrayed z as a giant troll, as though he never wrote a thing of substance, so yes it does come off like you're more familiar with his youtube clips than his books.

lol ok

no one is saying you have to care about or read in the tradition he is working in. if you care to know wtf is going on with zizek or why some people pay attention to him then it might pay some big dividends to engage in a little risky empathy and try to see what it's about.

I know you think theory is a big shell game, and sometimes it is, but it is also capable of producing forms of thinking and criticism with profound effects that are very rewarding if you are willing to do the work to get there. It's not really even the same genre as something like Chomsky or whoever you presumably think is doing real "political" work. It's a way of holding what people think of as real "political work" accountable. That precisely as valuable AND silly and wasteful as it looks.

Critical theory is political in an indirect way. Socrates is a good reference point for the role it serves in the culture -- more so than contemporary analytic philosophy it's about turning over unanswerable questions and locating paradoxes in the ideological fabric of society. It's valuable in that it is a.) fun and b.) helps you learn to think more flexibly about... everything basically. It's a cultural practice, or field, that is not a substitute for political action but still "political" in the sense that open-ended, interminable questioning...thought without end or conclusion...is a hallmark of a democratic culture, or open society. If it's useless than freedom is also useless, art is useless, etc. i think critical theory is more about keeping ideas "in play" than anything else...complicating shared assumptions, etc. and this tendency is definitely a part of the progressive tradition.

Wow what a terribly written, rambling post. I should have just said "ryan otm"

nah I think that was good

amateurist, i can understand the frustration if you're sampling his essays (he does indulge in "biff! bam! pow!" antics), but the good stuff imo is in the more sustained texts (e.g., "sublime object of ideology" early on, "less than nothing" most recently).

tbh i read zizek for the action-adventure plots

philistine.

dudes i don't think theory is a "shell game."

first of all, what do you mean by "theory"? do you mean, like, people positing theories that attempt to explain stuff? if so, about what?

or like, writing in the tradition of preferred continental writers x, y, and z?

because when a lot of folks talk about "theory" they really mean the latter, i.e. "Theory"

my sense is that today a lot of people use "theory" to mean what used to be called "philosophy".

also, let's say zizek's work is a huge iceberg. if i've read some small tip of this iceberg (like some of his film-cum-politics books, a bunch of his editorials, a few youtube seminars, etc.) and found it generally without interest (and largely w/o merit), i can choose to make an assumption that the rest is mostly of the same kind. or i can just defer, leaving open the possibility that some other part of this mostly-submerged iceberg contains a significant quantity of writing that is completely at odds with that i've been exposed to. that's always possible, but i'd put it in the realm of the unlikely.

my sense is that today a lot of people use "theory" to mean what used to be called "philosophy".

― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Monday, July 29, 2013 2:24 PM (18 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

philosophy is still a thing, and at least in anglo-american universities very little of it relates to the postwar lineage that people with other humanities degrees refer to as "Theory"

I mean what happens to attempts to explain stuff under the conditions of modernity (in the absence of a final or "theological" holistic explanation, if you will). It's not reducible to a few continental writers (I work in American thought, for instance) but does it (unfortunately in my mind) tend to get conflated with a certain emancipatory tradition which comes from continental thinkers.

well it doesn't relate to it methodologically or doctrinally, i suppose--certainly the subject matter relates

xpost

And you are totally free to disregard zizek! You just seem to show an interest, that's all.

zizek has plenty of serious, substantive, and coherent ideas about, for starters, how political ideology functions.

― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Monday, July 29, 2013 1:43 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is absolutely true i think, but this thread makes it very hard to have this conversation. i mean i disagree its all about his 'form' or whatever -- honestly i don't think he tries to be cryptic so much as is just sort of discursive and rambling, and often wants to talk about things that he feels are more relevant than others might.

at least one stupid cliffs-notes takeaway that i actually get from his stuff and find useful is that frequently when someone says "how can they think this? this is obviously wrong. here are the facts:" then they're barking up the wrong tree.

the core notion being just that people don't believe things for necessarily 'logical' reasons, and 'logical' arguments won't sway them because the actual arguments and beliefs they articulate aren't a coherent system, but trappings they invent and project that have the same _effect_ as the thing they actually care about and believe. and that's why the idea of applying ideas from psychoanalysis to political texts makes some sense.

i mean you can get some of the same notions from elsewhere, but zizek actually pursues that sort of inquiry into sometimes interesting places.

why should theory (lowercase) be limited to "attempts to explain stuff under the conditions of modernity"? shouldn't you call it "modernity theory" or "modernity studies" or something? to call it "theory" tout court seems an imperialist gesture to me (and I do find that Theory-capital-T in the American academy functions, w/in the humanities anyhow, in an imperialistic manner).

at least one stupid cliffs-notes takeaway that i actually get from his stuff and find useful is that frequently when someone says "how can they think this? this is obviously wrong. here are the facts:" then they're barking up the wrong tree.

clover, if you need zizek to tell you that...

i mean you can get some of the same notions from elsewhere, but zizek actually pursues that sort of inquiry into sometimes interesting places.

That's a totally fair point about "theory." I think in some ways though that we'd want to hold on to the "tout court" for complicated reasons that have to do with acknowledging the tradition you're working in. It's holding out for the infinite, to use a "theory" kind of phrase.

philosophy is still a thing, and at least in anglo-american universities very little of it relates to the postwar lineage that people with other humanities degrees refer to as "Theory"

totally agree. my sense is that in the anglo world, speculative thought of the type associated with continental philosophy was more heartily embraced at first within literary theory than within philosophy departments. but this "theory" thing really has a lot of good old philosophizing going on, and maintains a dialogue with that tradition going all the way back to the pre-socratics.

by "at first" i mean postwar 20th c., not all-time, obv.

there is a "modernity theory"/"modernity studies" trend w/in film studies btw, it made a lot of converts in the 90s. but the last chapter of this book is kind of a unrecoverable blow to those arguments, i think.

now i'm intrigued.

well you'd want to read some of tom gunning's articles on the subject, going back to mid-80s, i guess. he was supposed to have an anthology of those out a few years ago but LOL academic presses.

this is also worth browsing: http://www.amazon.com/Cinema-Invention-Modern-Life-Charney/dp/0520201124/

and the lineage traces back to http://www.amazon.com/Techniques-Observer-Modernity-Century-October/dp/0262531070/

nice, thanks. that last book has a beautiful cover!

ooooh I'm gonna read that last one. good stuff.

to put my own cards on the table, when i talk about "modernity" i usually have some variation of what niklas luhmann suggested in mind:
http://www.amazon.com/Observations-Modernity-Writing-Science-Luhmann/dp/0804732353/ref=pd_sim_b_5

well, the crary book's argument is extremely dubious i think, but it's not a bad read

also sorry people i forgot that it was

dontbeadickday.com

Amateurist if you dislike all Theory then having a debate specifically about Zizek seems kinda pointless? Like "I object to the notion of chilli chocolate ice cream. BTW I hate chilli, chocolate and ice cream."

lol

Amateurist if you dislike all Theory then having a debate specifically about Zizek seems kinda pointless? Like "I object to the notion of chilli chocolate ice cream. BTW I hate chilli, chocolate and ice cream."

― Tim F, Monday, July 29, 2013 5:15 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

but zizek is read (and, apparently, appreciated) by people who aren't devoted only to Theory. and I don't recall where I said I object to everything Theory--I just don't enjoy the conflation of theory and Theory.

depends on the field, obv in humanities there`s a good reason for focus on primary & secondary texts but in anything technical u can get really far without looking at anything other than textbooks. but yeah

― flopson, Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:36 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

eh, if you want to understand technical things at all well, there are textbooks written by the people who also wrote the papers. they tend to be good, often contain new material themselves, and be well regarded as works in the field in their own right. often they are assigned to grad courses. then there are lots of terrible textbooks written by other people, and those are mainly not going to be very good, and they will teach you things that aren't true, often. those are more the "intro texts" that i imagine the author is speaking of. after reading those you can sometimes pretend you know things, but only in the company of people who don't know things themselves. the problem is they don't want to tell you a vision of a field of study, they just want to tell you what you need to pass the course.

― stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Sunday, July 28, 2013 7:34 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't what technical fields you're referring to but i know some undergraduate math textbooks that are straight up masterpieces of exposition that give a rich vision of a field of study, if not as up-to-date in terms of current research as you'd expect in a grad textbook. sometimes they are even almost valuable as literature, like gouvea's p-adic numbers for example, which has this really friendly kinda gregarious jewish uncle tone, so readable and perfectly sustained. i used to work at my campus bookstore in the textbook dept and would read other science textbooks and they were usually pretty cool. i think your post is a good characterization of a lot of arts textbooks though. like a prof at my school literally puts out a textbook called "dinner-party economics"

Amateurist if you dislike all Theory then having a debate specifically about Zizek seems kinda pointless? Like "I object to the notion of chilli chocolate ice cream. BTW I hate chilli, chocolate and ice cream."

― Tim F, Monday, July 29, 2013 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

of/in the end result*.

huh

chilli chocolate ice cream not equal to the sum of its parts, basically