This is the thread where we talk about Slavoj Zizek...

eh

i don't think marxism is anti-bourgeois, really. it is an immanent critique of bourgeois society -- measuring the culture capitalism has produced against its own professed standards of freedom and equality. the people who would be drawn to it, and the society it promises after the revolution, would precisely be middle class intellectuals.

Finally, in times when the class struggle nears the decisive hour, the process of dissolution going on within the ruling class, in fact within the whole range of society, assumes such a violent, glaring character, that a small section of the ruling class cuts itself adrift, and joins the revolutionary class, the class that holds the future in its hands. Just as, therefore, at an earlier period, a section of the nobility went over to the bourgeoisie, so now a portion of the bourgeoisie goes over to the proletariat, and in particular, a portion of the bourgeois ideologists, who have raised themselves to the level of comprehending theoretically the historical movement as a whole.

those would be some damn fine altruists, but i doubt you'd find them among the social climbers who use leftism as a status signifier. guess i'm just getting disillusioned here. anyway.....

how often and in what ways do "people use left-wing politics to enhance their status in the ruling class" ?

every day on ilx

I guess what are we calling the ruling class here?

white ppl

last two grafs on page 5 of that zizek pdf (copy-and-pasting fucked up the formatting and i don't have time to fix it it's my birthday today) are super super otm

happy b-day, comrade dlh

what marx is talking about in mordy's blockquote isn't altruists (people who make their own lives worse for the sake of the downtrodden) but people who perceive that the entire species is hampered by the current order, i think

thx mordy!

I think the phrase "comprehending theoretically the historical movement as a whole" gives a pretty decent explanation itself to why certain portions of the "ruling class" may be drawn to such ideas. That presumption *in itself* is something on the order of an object of desire, not least one that flatters your own mastery.

it's like, here's yet another way to prove your social superiority to your peers.

that guy is fun... I've seen his documentary numerous times, about the movies..

But never read much, listened to the macintalk or whatever of the reading.. hard to comprehend.

On Violence... The movies with advertisment "doubling" or commercial ironies...

watels.... his innately normal and purely good political ideology.

i will read the thread now :-)

xp i think some people have desires to acquire knowledge because they find it satisfying or enjoyable and sometimes this will lead them to adopt marxist positions. i don't think it's all about social capital.

xxp yes, which is why i think it's funny. they're using something that would strip them of status as a tool to claim status, yet they seem completely unaware of it. or if they are aware of it than they're just cunning.

it's not always about social capital, those are just the most obvious cases.

i agree that sometimes academics see themselves as existing outside the capitalist power structure in a way that is simply ridiculous when you take a look at the functions universities serve in our society

I could maybe agree with a little bit of the idea, but it just seems mostly funny to me cuz if you said "things that increase your social capital among the ruling class" I wouldn't really go "marxism!!"
xpost

xposts! sure, but I think in this particular case it's just re-inscribing aristocratic privilege through the readily available avenue of Marxist theory. It's Marxism folded into capitalism rather than vice versa.

like it doesn't really seem to be near the top of the list of things that are happening when people engage in leftist politics

I feel a little out of my league here though, not really too expert in this stuff

mostly because I shun such forms of social capital

that quote isn't talking about someone wearing a che t-shirt. its talking about like john reed. and it isn't talking about some "tool to claim status" challops you guys are the worst.

do you understand that aristocratic privilege isn't like "people think you're a clever lad" but like you own the world?

The quote IS talking about why those in the ruling party side with the revolutionary class. It's not really absurd to claim at this point that it has to do with something other than "comprehending the historical movement as a whole."

i'll throw down my cards here, i've spent plenty of time with upper class kids and they're all about marx, zizek, lacan, etc. and it just hit me that it's fucking absurd. yeah, i'm thinkin' bout things here.

lacan isn't necessarily a left wing thinker, i don't think

his ideas gained a lot of currency among western marxists though... sorry i am "splitting hairs" for no reason

those upper class kids are still prob generally atypical in that regard

no one owns the world, that's stupid

plus they'll get over it when they become in charge of managing property and wealth

estimate % upper class kids infatuated with von mises, hajek, strauss or kojeve vs % infatuated with marx & zizek vs % who just don't give a fuck

10%, 5%, 85&

respectively

The quote IS talking about why those in the ruling party side with the revolutionary class. It's not really absurd to claim at this point that it has to do with something other than "comprehending the historical movement as a whole."

― ryan, Friday, July 26, 2013 3:41 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

marx isn't talking about parties, he's talking about classes there is a difference, and he's describing particularly "in times when the class struggle nears the decisive hour" so like russia in 1915 maybe. Or Jarosław Dąbrowski in the paris commune.

i recently got strauss' collected essays on maimonidies - good stuff xxp

no one owns the world, that's stupid

― Mordy , Friday, July 26, 2013 3:46 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

then how did this dude sell it huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSH--SJKVQQ

ya it's not people who find marxism compelling will leave their station to join their ideological peers and build the future so much as property owners who don't want to be killed in the revolution will preserve their heads by switching sides

can't blame them really

why because they raised themselves to the level of comprehending theoretically the historical movement as a whole

I wonder how much that "most cited theorists" list reflects (or doesnt reflect) what undergrads are into these days.

when the revolution comes the capitalists will sell us the ropes that we use to hang other liberals w/

i think a peaceful revolution would be chill

10%, 5%, 85&

― fervently nice (Treeship), Friday, 26 July 2013 20:50 (6 minutes ago)

this is probably about right for university age, for >2 years after university i doubt it is as high as 15% who care about any type of political philosophy

I wonder how much that "most cited theorists" list reflects (or doesnt reflect) what undergrads are into these days.

― ryan, Friday, July 26, 2013 3:56 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

smirnoff ice iirc

hahaha. also, fair enough on your last response!

treeship otm in that marxist theory has typically been the product of bourgeois intellectuals, and is, in its present form, largely addressed to that group.

i.e., a fun way for those in power to fantasize about killing their parents.

a useful marxism, one defined by action as much as theory, arising from and directed to the working classes - such a movement would probably attract upper & middle class followers, but in practice have little in common with its academic cousin (e.g. bolivarianism in venzuela).

or uh the russian revolution or the cuban revolution or the chinese revolution or the paris commune or the vietnamese revolution or...

or the history of 20th century europe basically, or the structure of current day politics in the indian subcontinent or...

i mean i get that in america its sort of easy to pretend this is just stuff that matters to a few ppl in college but