Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

Ah, I typed "violence" but of course meant "ownership". Again, this point might be of use in a discussion about "civilian gun ownership is an instrument of black oppression in America" but that is not really the discussion being had here and I retract it for its irrelevance.

Anyone who doesn't think the Zimmerman/Martin altercation and outcome couldn't have happened just about anywhere in the United States is severely deluded. That said I'm fine with boycotting Florida cuz really Florida basically sucks.

The question is could it have happened in a state without a Stand Your Ground law? I'd say no, since that's basically a no-catch get out of jail free card. You have to go above and beyond to mess up with Stand Your Ground, like the guy in Texas (?) who confronted his elementary school teacher neighbor, lured him out into the street, and then shot him:http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06-27/news/sns-rt-us-usa-shooting-texasbre85r02k-20120627_1_texas-man-texas-firefighter-deadly-force

Looks like pre-2007, Texas law required SYG adherents to seek shelter or try to hide first, but of course that facet of the law was reversed. This guy even tells the police explicitly that he was "standing my ground;" there was reportedly a sense in this trial that he knew exactly what he was up to, legally.

Castle Doctrine would be a good name for a band.

So am I right, then, in assuming there are degrees of SYG laws, and that some are more lax than others?

Defense did not even invoke SYG at trial. And real issues with this case were incompetent/indifferent/possibly even racist police officers and a lack of evidence (possibly due to aforementioned) to refute Zimmerman's self-defense claims at trial. Former are not a unique problem in FLA and latter would not be unique to this case.

I'm fine with focusing ire on SYG and FLA but pretending that FLA has the only shitty cops/prosecutors and that defense lawyers basically anywhere wouldn't have been able to exploit loopholes in this case to get a client off (esp. when victim is a young black male and client is not) seems disingenuous.

I never said that. There is racism everywhere that gets people shot. There are always loopholes - that's the law - but SYG is the world's biggest loophole.

Didn't the juror who is talking say they took SYG into account, whether they were told to or not?

In an interview on CNN’s Anderson Cooper 360 Monday night, an anonymous juror said the panel that found George Zimmerman not guilty considered Florida’s Stand Your Ground law in its deliberations. Earlier reports suggested the notorious law that authorizes the unfettered use of deadly force in self-defense was not applied to the case, because Zimmerman’s lawyers opted not to request a Stand Your Ground hearing. But as ThinkProgress explained in a post earlier today, the jury instructions contained the law’s key provision and instructed jurors that self-defense meant Zimmerman was entitled to “stand his ground” with “no duty to retreat.”

I don't think that those two elements are critical here since in Zimmerman's telling at the point where he shoot Martin there was no opportunity to retreat.

shot

pretending that FLA has the only shitty cops/prosecutors and that defense lawyers basically anywhere wouldn't have been able to exploit loopholes in this case to get a client off (esp. when victim is a young black male and client is not) seems disingenuous.

sure, and this post will come in very handy if anybody ever does that

JIC - But in 2013, Zimmerman could not have gotten away with what he specifically got away with anywhere, just in some select places.

"no duty to retreat"

I addressed that.

JIC - But in 2013, Zimmerman could not have gotten away with what he specifically got away with anywhere, just in some select places.

ah, if you're gonna push that hard on "able to exploit loopholes...to get a client off" then otm. anybody anywhere could potentially get away with anything.

I think the specifics of this case make it easy to imagine Zimmerman being acquitted of second degree murder anywhere in the US.

You know, I'm going to stand my ground here, to coin a phrase. The vast majority of this case could and does occur all over, especially the stalking, calling the police, etc. Even the shooting. But a civilian admitting to following and then killing an unarmed teenager after the police told you not to leave your car, then getting an acquittal? No, that shit does not happen everywhere, not where someone ends up with anything less than manslaughter. In fact, if you could find a comparably audacious case in the modern era, I bet a manslaughter conviction would be cited as an example of a cop-op compromise and symbol of a racist system. But an acquittal, given the facts of the case? That needs some special SYG doing.

xpost I agree with that. But manslaughter should have been the runner-up, not an acquittal.

911 dispatchers are not police, they are civilians, and have no statutory authority to require you to do anything at all. It sucks, but that's the way it is. Zimmerman was under no obligation to obey the 911 dispatcher however strongly or weakly worded "Stay in the car" was.

xxxp I think you are dreaming.

One thing I will concede is that some of the specifics of the specifics of this case would not be likely occur in some places (due to geography, economics, other laws governing carrying of firearms, etc). But assuming we are talking about the same case in all regards and we've just moved the locale magically to let's say SF well I don't have much reason to doubt that the outcome would be the same (with a hung jury at best on the manslaughter charge).

That's surprising to me. What would the defense be?

Besides SYG (which CA has, correct)?

Regardless, weakened SYG laws would undoubtedly make this kind of outcome less likely.

maybe i'm wrong. if anyone's got a similar recent case (armed civilian pursues, confronts and kills an unarmed civilian against the advice of authorities, is not immediately arrested and when charged, is found guilty of nothing), i'd like to hear about it.

The defense is the same (self-defense). At point where Zimmerman is on the ground having his head slammed into the pavement, it is largely irrelevant what the 911 dispatch told him or whatever other mistakes he made. He was reasonably afraid for his life and had to defend himself.

I don't get what we're fighting about. Florida being a giant redneck turd that should be flushed into the ocean and the rest of America being filled with racist fickheads aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Let's sink Florida now while the irons hot & pick of the rest as we go

Fickheads!

I can't disagree.

ums otm

florida is full of lots of very nice people, and people who should not fall into the ocean. it is also home to a great deal of poverty and misery (not uniquely, i know, but especially so for historical/demographic reasons and especially lately because of the role of its real estate in the last boom bust cycle)

bear in mind if you want florida to fall into the ocean that includes all the people in florida that are on the receiving end of all the crummy stuff that you are now identifying with florida.

I'm not fighting about anything. I'm just saying, racism may be pervasive, but it is even more pervasive and executable, so to speak - as are certain gun laws, as are attempts to restrict abortion rights, etc. - in some states than others. And that's probably where the focus should stay fixed. That is, you can say there's just as much racism and injustice in San Fran as there is in Sanford, and indeed both states share almost the exact same SYG law, nearly verbatim (coincidence?), and you may be right. But what happened in Sanford - particularly the outcome - I still say would not happen in San Fran, even though legally it certainly could.

Most places in America are full of good people who vote for these horrible politicians and laws. There was a doc I saw years ago called "Dear Jesse" about the weird disconnect between nice neighbors and hospitality in North Carolina and the knowledge that many of those same nice neighbors voted, again and again, for a hateful slug like Jesse Helms.

Was it the New Yorker that had the profile of that one old lady who has been pushing SYG laws on everyone for decades?

florida is full of lots of very nice people, and people who should not fall into the ocean. it is also home to a great deal of poverty and misery (not uniquely, i know, but especially so for historical/demographic reasons and especially lately because of the role of its real estate in the last boom bust cycle)

bear in mind if you want florida to fall into the ocean that includes all the people in florida that are on the receiving end of all the crummy stuff that you are now identifying with florida.
― stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Thursday, July 18, 2013 10:06 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

speaking as a Floridian...sink the fucker. just let me organize a series of secret buses first to get the dece ppls out. if anybody asks what the buses are for I'll just say "Coachella" and everyone will just shrug and head back to their hammocks.

s.clover otm, and what does it say to the oppressed in Florida that the rest of America wants to abandon them

Speaking as the godfather to a black-Filipino Floridian, please don't sink them

I sure wish a method of sinking FL into the ocean didn't actually exist, but alas....

yeah you guys god is already sinking florida

decision is made

I mean we helped a little

state motto: "friends for eternity, loyalty, honesty."

won't somebody think of the orphans?

As a Miamian I protest. I will not board any bus marked "Coachella."

these threads get so interesting when people seriously debate whether a state should secede/be expelled, because that is a thing that has a chance of happening

i'm with the people saying it is stupid to turn against an entire state. boycotting florida would have the same effect as the economic sanctions the US imposes on countries whose governments it doesn't like: it will only hurt the most vulnerable people there and have very little effect on the people you want to hurt.

Odds are that for most people that don't live in Florida, "boycotting the state" would require zero effort.

Whoever said protest the NRA, Sanford Police, SYG lawmakers, etc. That's a far smarter way to look at this.

i have a fantasy that a massive, national "boycott florida" movement will emerge and scare some sanity in their government. has nothing to do with actually boycotting florida, and i'm happy to admit that it'll never happen.

I have a fantasy that American film and TV stop portraying guns as anything other than instruments of horror and oppression, but that will never happen.

pfffft

hey guys i'm not entirely serious about sinking florida into the ocean

but honestly a boycott florida thing would be good! i think showing states the financial consequences of the backwards republican agenda is good...

will it be like, an orange juice and Skynyrd boycott? or an academic boycott of Scripps Florida and all their promising cancer treatments and shit?

yachts, I think

Coke and Weed