Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

Ive been beaten up, id have happily pulled a gun on them tbfh

nb i didnt chase them first and pick a fight with them

I haven't followed the details of Zimmerman's testimony. Did he admit to following Martin and telling him to stop?

he didn't testify iirc

*statements to police, that is

one of the most heart-wrenching things i saw on twitter saturday night was an alternate timeline where the whole incident ended with zimmerman saying, "ok" to the dispatcher telling him that they didn't need him to follow martin. if only it could've been that simple.

No pleading the fifth in civil court. If there is a civil case brought, he will be compelled to testify.

that is not correct

I think in his statements he didn't admit to following him at any time. One of the several lies in his version of things.

I think dispatches should now be trained to be more direct and assertive in that type of direction to a caller. "Do not follow this person. Return to you vehicle and remain there until police arrive. Do you understand, sir? I repeat...", rather than mmmyeahh ok we're not gonna need you to go ahead and come in on Saturday.

however I think the difference may be that the plaintiffs in a civil proceeding are entitled to point to the fact that a person refuses to testify and to draw inferences from it, whereas in a criminal case you can't be like "If Zimmerman is so innocent, why does he refuse to take the stand and tell us what REALLY happened?!" xp

I still don't understand how it has become so clear to many people that TM attacked GM. "These assholes always get away ------>>>> I'm going to make sure this one doesn't. "Why are you following me??...Get off me!" ---->>>>GZ attempted to detain TM so he wouldn't be another one that got away.

xpost
Yeah, I guess that's what I meant, he doesn't have to testify, but not testifying can be held against him in the decision. He is metaphorically compelled to testify, because if he doesn't it could harm him even more.

Oh fun, I just saw that "Trayvoning" is a thing now.

Is that a euphemism for "murdering?"

trayvoning = planking in a hoodie holding an iced tea and skittles

please be joking

http://gawker.com/george-zimmerman-juror-b37-hates-media-called-trayvon-787873533

Juries, ladies and gentlemen. The American way.

Trayvonning started right after the shooting fyi. Not new

I would not joke about something like that because it's not funny. it's a thing.

if I saw someone trayvonning I would stomp on some extremely painful part of his/her body, but I get the feeling nobody would do that in public around here

holy shit. :( if there were ever a scenario that needed a shitty offensive meme any less, it's this one.

I think "jury of your peers" is a nice idea in theory, but the one time I served on a jury I was angered and disgusted by how cavalierly the other jurors took their duty. They were more concerned about getting home in time for dinner than deliberating and coming to a just verdict. It was "this guy is obviously an asshole, let's say he's guilty" rather than ok what are the facts, what has been proven, what was he actually charged with, etc. Ugh I get mad and depressed thinking about it.

I've been called for duty three times, and I've never made it to a trial. Dismissed after voir dire when a plea was agreed to once, dismissed without even getting to voir dire the other two.

Welcome to my America. I've been living here for forty years.

It's been interesting and infuriating to read the reactions on this thread after mostly following the aftermath of the verdict through black twitter. The way most of you are processing this feels utterly alien to me.

Care to expand?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6duwsi3gP1rnpq4go1_400.gif

http://black.twitter.com ?

srsly get depressed and furious every time i read about this. what a fucked-up country.

I think "jury of your peers" is a nice idea in theory, but the one time I served on a jury I was angered and disgusted by how cavalierly the other jurors took their duty.

i do wonder how anyone could consider an all-white jury a fair and impartial group of "peers" in a case where race is so obviously a factor.

Care to expand?

― collardio gelatinous, Monday, July 15, 2013 4:02 PM Bookmark

I quite literally cried all Saturday night and have basically felt hollow since. I've had a thousand yard vietnam vet stare on my face for large portions of the past two days. The way I've experienced this has been through rage and sadness and fear and watching others go through the same things. It's really a very short time ago that I was a 17-year-old black boy. To come into this thread and witness all the bitchy lawyering and sniping is just like..... are y'all even seeing the point? For a black person this is SCARY AS FUCK.

thing i fuckin cannot stand is this idea -- which number one i question this WHOLE premise anyway -- is this faux rational tut-tutting "oh well you know according to our legal system the jury had to acquit, the prosecution didn't reach the burden of proof, there was simply too much reasonable doubt, old chum"

it's like there's nothing fucking holy or, like, pre-existing in nature about the U.S. legal system, it's like it's the fucking weather or gravity to these fucks....if our justice system reaches the wrong conclusion and lets someone get away with the murder of a child i have every right to be angry and i am under no obligation to necessarily give two rat fucks about "reasonable doubt" or "that's how our justice system works"

oh, this is a failure of the justice system, yes, and also the legislative system and the executive branch

(executive being represented by the cops in this case)

reasonable doubt is a cool thing you should like imo

& yeah rev i'm really fucking sorry man i literally don't even know what to say about this fucking shithole country anymore....and yep i'm as complicit due to my own privilege as anyone....couple months ago i got pulled over driving through a rougher part of north minneapolis, got pulled over.....cops both get out of the car kinda edgy but as soon as they saw a harmless looking, 30-something, glasses wearing white dude they totally changed....let me off w/o no ticket even though i had one headlight out AND couldn't find my proof of insurance....it's 2 different justice systems

Bryant and Milam acquitted by a jury of their peers. Rule of law, amirite.

on the subway today i saw a mom (~50yo, white) trying to explain what was going on to her son (~8yo, guessing vietnamese)

no matter how she broke it down, it still didn't make much sense

so you're against juries? the legal system in general? we know who's guilty and who isn't so let's cut out this foofaraw? I don't see your point. Your anger is more true because FUCK THE WHOLE SYSTEM MAN. Ok.

xp

would you say that to someone who was angry about the acquittal of Bryant and Milam?

i'm saying it to you now

they had to try medgar evers killer three times to get justice

..if our justice system reaches the wrong conclusion and lets someone get away with the murder of a child i have every right to be angry and i am under no obligation to necessarily give two rat fucks about "reasonable doubt" or "that's how our justice system works"

otm

i imagine everyone here knows that our criminal justice system's treatment of black americans is and always has been obscene, a crime in itself. but i don't think there's anything wrong with discussing the particulars of this or that case in a more-or-less clinical manner. nor do i think anyone's right to anger is being challenged.

i mean, the board has similarly discussed every important news story i can think of during the 7 or so years i've been posting here.

then again, i don't want to offend anyone or make a bad situation worse...

it's just like if i have to hear one more actually-racist-but-won't-cop-to-it facebook lawyer i went to high school talk shit about "reasonable doubt" as if it's some quantifiable, scientific measurement that exists outside of culture and race and politics and emotions etc i'm gonna explode

& also not to put words in rev's mouth but i imagine that if this case hits you hard, like a true assault on your status as a human being and citizen of this country, it's pretty sad to see ILX ILXing the fuck out of this the same way that, truth be told, we do everything because we're board at work and fuck it we gotta argue about SOMETHING and for a lot of the people doing it their priviledge has never been in question in this country, ever, for one second...i would imagine that feels hurtful even if not intended so

xxxxp that is otm. and I'm under no obligation to feel exactly how you do about it.

so you're against juries? the legal system in general? we know who's guilty and who isn't so let's cut out this foofaraw? I don't see your point. Your anger is more true because FUCK THE WHOLE SYSTEM MAN. Ok.

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, July 15, 2013 4:44 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There's nothing sacred about American legal system. Lots of other countries do it different ways. Not saying they're more right or wrong than the US legal system, but just because a court has found a certain way doesn't make it the paramount truth.

& also not to put words in rev's mouth but i imagine that if this case hits you hard, like a true assault on your status as a human being and citizen of this country, it's pretty sad to see ILX ILXing the fuck out of this the same way that, truth be told, we do everything because we're board at work and fuck it we gotta argue about SOMETHING and for a lot of the people doing it their priviledge has never been in question in this country, ever, for one second...i would imagine that feels hurtful even if not intended so

― adrian "stanky" legg (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, July 15, 2013 5:06 PM Bookmark

YES, THIS

Not saying they're more right or wrong than the US legal system, but just because a court has found a certain way doesn't make it the paramount truth.

Absolutely correct. As I said way upthread, this case nor any other isn't about "paramount truth". We all wish such a forum existed but it just doesn't, and I think that's the cause of a lot of the anger. This flawed legal system is what we have to live with, while (hopefully) constantlly seeking to make it more just and more perfect.
But in THIS case I don't see how the jury could've possibly ruled differently (disagree w/s.clover way upthread). The jury arriving at that verdict is pretty much the thing that upsets me the least about the whole affair.