Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

i thonk everyone itt is worked up. it's not a competition

*think

oops

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― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:13 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

how mad do i have to be to get the tote? totes are boss.

So what's next? What's going to come after/because of this?

I've been out all day -- do any smart ppl think the DOJ is going to bring civil rights violation charges?

clover isn't your problem w/ him that he has been following it while you can't be bothered enough to concern yrself w/ trivial details, who needs facts, burden of proof, presumption of innocence, etc when you have yr gut amirite. you can think zimmerman is a scumbag and murderer and that america is fucked up and the laws and culture that led to this are disgusting and that the way it's played out in the media (be it mass or social) are horrifying as well and still at the same time think that prosecution failed to make its case or even if prosecution had done a better job that the presentable facts may not have been enough to convict a man of murder beyond a reasonable doubt. george zimmerman is hardly the first murderer to walk cuz our justice system is flawed. are you gonna go bronson on us?

if we've got to the point that "love your neighbor as yourself and love god above all things" = "liberal" i just i just i just...

meh, worked for MLK and Dorothy Day

Maybe if some of you unbelievers realized that "God", for most people of thoughtful faith, represents the ties between humans, you could cease your seething kneejerk loathing for all religious practices and people.

judge not, my friend

I had no idea people of thoughtful faith used those adjectives, Morbs.

don't look at me, I've semi-lost religion in the last few years. If God created man, he made a mistake.

i'm sort of worked up about a verdict in this case. i don't know if you've been following it...

― stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:08 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

VegemiteGrrl is on the money. All of us are worked up about it. This thread wouldn't be this fat if none of us gave a shit - and most of us have been reading up on it for the last 1.5 years, too. We all seem to share the same opinion on how fucked up this all is.

Matt and Freud just made a minor correction to one of amateurist's statements - that's all.

Maybe if some of you unbelievers realized that "God", for most people of thoughtful faith, represents the ties between humans, you could cease your seething kneejerk loathing for all religious practices and people.

― playwright Greg Marlowe, secretly in love with Mary (Dr Morbius), Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:34 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I said fuck "God" because I hate the concept of God and religion in general. Whatever imaginary deity people want to believe in is their own right, I don't begrudge anybody for it and I would wager most of my friends believe in some form of God. w/e.

are protesters smashing windows and fucking shit up in other parts of the country in response to this, or is it just where I live?

― Gregory Bateson is always appropriate (sarahell), Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:54 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i've only seen the fucking up of shit from your neck of the woods, though tbh its where i expected it first

nothing happening here.

haha it's the only thing i've said on this whole thread & i get blasted. it's just that "he ignored direction to stay in his car" is such a pervasive media trope that it rubs me the wrong way when i see it. you can make the case that an injustice occurred even without phony facts.

xp I feel bad for the small businesses in that 3-4 square block radius that always bear the brunt of activist rage.

LOL oakland never change

so has anybody seen any opinion polls? scanning some major news sites it seems like i live in a bubble and "public opinion" is pretty much against trayvon?

xp Yeah, someone should make a Comedy Central series about it

I am avoiding opinion polls like the plague, but I don't think the public opinion is against Trayvon. I just think those that are 'against' Trayvon tend to be the most vocal at this point. it's probably closer to evenly split, but I haven't seen any data and am kind of afraid to look.

seeing a lot of "trayvon was the aggressor" / "zimmerman was the one who was racially profiled" craziness on what i consider to be fairly neutral news sites, and those comments are getting voted up by like 10:1 margins

OTOH nobody's stepping up to defend zimmerman on ILX ... who knows

seeing a lot of "trayvon was the aggressor" / "zimmerman was the one who was racially profiled" craziness on what i consider to be fairly neutral news sites, and those comments are getting voted up by like 10:1 margins - this is a really poor measure of public opinion though. i could imagine 'zimmerman was vindicated/is a hero' getting a plurality in polls if only cuz it's turned into such a republican talking point, it ties in so many of their concerns so nicely.

see i always wonder how good such things are at measuring opinion

that's why i was curious to see a poll or whatever

because I hate the concept of God

You hate a concept?

Am I right in thinking that where Zimmerman and Martin lived was a fairly affluent housing development? I'm trying to work out whether Zimmerman would have actually seen black guys going around in gangs with any sort of frequency. I don't think that would justify him, I just want to be clear on how far from reality his attitude was.

it was gated but middle class I think

i think they're kinda effective at measuring passion, esp if that passion is something you'd fell more comfortable expressing w/ the anonymity of the internet. even there though i think it can be misleading. really all i think you can glean from that is that yes these awful ppl exist.

based solely on the relative comportment of the Martin and Zimmerman families, the concept of a deity and the loving community of a church seem to be not entirely without value

not to mention the thus far relative tranquility after the verdict announcement

[Removed Illegal Link].

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/14/3500109/verdict-leaves-key-question-unanswered.html?fb_action_ids=10201544157061788&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210201544157061788%22%3A207197806071023}&action_type_map={%2210201544157061788%22%3A%22og.likes%22}&action_ref_map=[]

morbs, here's all i've found on doj - http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/justice-dept-says-it-will-consider-whether-to-file-civil-rights-charges-in-zimmerman-case/2013/07/14/ad73c76c-ecc0-11e2-b46e-f15eec37b46c_story.html. it doesn't sound promising.

obama's statement - "The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that's a job for all of us. That's the way to honor Trayvon Martin."
can't wait to hear republicans in coming days denounce this hateful and divisive statement.

"He didn't mention Zimmerman!"

"who needs facts, burden of proof, presumption of innocence, etc when you have yr gut amirite"

that's not it at all. the facts are that zimmerman killed a kid, and we all know that. all the rest is armchair lawyering that's trying to convince people that an acquittal is anything at all short of a basic statement that america is an apartheid state (or parts are at least) where certain lives have no rights and no value.

the attempt to divert a systematic problem w/ america into monday morning quarterbacking over 'the rule of law' is precisely part of trying to diminish what this case means.

everyone running out and pontificating about how xyz about felony laws are tricky and in fact the charging was important but the conviction was going to be hard because etc. is playing a role in diminishing and diverting the real point here.

and i don't understand the _eagerness_ to rush into this crap, outside, maybe of the fact that it psychologically makes this situation easier for people to accept if they turn it into the sort of thing one can have a pleasant discussion about, with a back-and-forth and truth in both sides. there's no back and forth here, no truth in both sides, no mitigating legal circumstance, no community of common interests such that a rational discussion is possible. that's what this decision means.

don't give the amateur lawyering an inch. that's just appeasement.

there's no presumption of innocence here. everyone _agrees_ who shot who. and there's no possible reasonable doubt that zimmerman could possibly have feared for his life. that's really it. even if you find some loophole vis a vis crummy fla law, that's besides the point. there's no notion of 'justice' in this decision, unless you worship the fact of the law (any law, anyone else's law, the fact of there being a law, the law for some and not others) itself.

does it feel good to be proud of 'calling' the case? like a point spread in a basketball game? is it a smart feeling? a superior one? comforting? i don't understand.

yeah if you're gonna advocate ignoring the rule of law and inconveniences like burden of proof and presumption of innocence cuz they didn't work out the way you wanted (this time) so in favor of mob justice and not diminishing 'the real point' you might want to make sure you actually have the mob and the guns on yr side first.

xpost yeah, everyone itt is clearly overjoyed about it....

zimmerman's acquittal had fuck all to do with presumption of innocence and burden of proof. nor am i arguing for mob justice for zimmerman!?

do you have any idea what i'm saying at all balls? who are you arguing against? it isn't me! are you worried that if i get too mad, the first window with a brick through it will be yours?

no idea how good it feels to 'call' the case (has anyone here done that?). i can't imagine it's a superior feeling to whatever you're indulging in right now. if you're trying to prove it's not possible to have a 'rational discussion' about this though kudos. as long as you realize that armchair activism is as empty and pathetic as armchair lawyering. but hey if it makes you feel like you did something, you stood up against this injustice and posted some stuff on a thread on the internet w/ ppl that effectively agreee w/ you have fun, fight the power. you're totally making a difference here man.

clover i have absolutely no worries that at any point you might actually act on yr beliefs

Sorry to interject here.

All this talk about justice, burden of proof, police work, "we'll get you, Zimmerman"-- not to mention racial implications-- is playing into the same obfuscation of What Is Actually Fucked Up Here, which is that America is occupied by a junta of gun-wielding psychopaths. I was reading about CCW permits, specifically the bill in Illinois and the completely batshit language that surrounds its discussion-- "you can't carry under the age of 21 or if you've had a DUI? this is BULLSHIT"-- and it honestly seems to an outsider that America is not so much a nation that Hates Black People but a nation that has been so deeply poisoned by the lies of gun lobbyists and the legalese surrounding the 2nd Amendment that it is impossible to imagine America without guns. Which is what James Baldwin said about race in the 60s... re-watching some James Baldwin videos this morning when he's saying "you are talking about a nation I have never seen" and "if you think you are yourself white you are beyond hope" I can't help but draw parallels to gunlanguage. Like, the idea that lawmakers have to even be debating the extent of permissibility of possession of these child-killing objects means you've already lost. An America without guns should be the object here and any shifting of blame, whether "right" or "left", to ALEC or racism or hoodies or what-have-you, is imho detrimental to your nation's safety.

"a thread on the internet w/ ppl that effectively agreee w/ you"

ok if you effectively agree w/ me why are you being such a huge douche about it? i don't understand why you are arguing with me, i think u feel threatened but i don't know y.

the attempt to divert a systematic problem w/ america into monday morning quarterbacking over 'the rule of law' is precisely part of trying to diminish what this case means

this is otm

All this talk about justice, burden of proof, police work, "we'll get you, Zimmerman"-- not to mention racial implications-- is playing into the same obfuscation of What Is Actually Fucked Up Here, which is that America is occupied by a junta of gun-wielding psychopaths.

otm about the tragedy of america's inability to imagine life without guns, but i hate all the "you're talking about this, but you really need to be talking about THIS" crap. it is possible to reasonably and productively discuss different aspects of a subject, even one that's weighted with moral and emotional import.

plus balls on fire

why would i feel threatened? 'omg he might deconstruct me!' i think that internet calls for mob justice are laughable and that 'any discussion of changing laws is appeasement! we must overthrow the system! w/ strongly worded essays!' is the type of incompetent leftism of the past forty years that's partly responsible for getting us to this place.

contendo that wasn't my point at all, though I'm sorry you think it's crap, I'm not trying to show you a bigger elephant, I'm expressing my frustration that much of the debate continues to re-affirm the existence of guns in the hands of American civilians by assuming that this current reality is unchangeable