Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

actually goole that is exactly what my feeling was. I had a bad feeling about getting a conviction from the moment of the arrest, but at least it got to this stage when it looked like it wouldn't. There's really no injustice of the court system if he gets acquitted as that's how it's supposed to work, the only injustice was the length of time it took to arrest, but at this point it's happened and just gotta deal with it.

Sadly, it has brought out a lot of ugliness in town.

btw if someone is in mount position and banging your head into the sidewalk, where the heck do you keep your firearm to make it reachable under these circumstances?

Guess what I am saying is that it doesn't sound like Zimmerman shot Martin execution style. It does sound like he had a paranoid racist freak out and used deadly force unreasonably and it does sound like he's probably embellishing his story to make it sound reasonable. But I also know that stuff that sounds unlikely is occasionally true. So I don't think I could convict based on the evidence given the burden of proof.

speaking for myself (tho i guess i hope others agree) all i wanted out of this was a trial. i wanted all the evidence heard. i wanted zimmerman arrested and put on trial, rather than for the cops to just say "ok, sorry buddy, have a nice night". i didn't really think there would be enough evidence for a conviction, and was sort of surprised (but not really) that prosecutors charged him with 2nd degree murder and not something lesser. the only two people with a clear idea of what happened are now in a grave and in the dock. i expect zimmerman will be acquitted.

i hope that an equivocal kind of justice, the attempt at it, is enough for communities in florida.

― goole, Monday, 1 July 2013 22:00 (1 minute ago)

the relentless focus on the person of one violent, delusional fool serves to occlude the reform of systemic faults that ought to be the primary concern -- the idiotic & inhumane laws that facilitate vigilanteism and the gross failing of due process in investigating the killing originally

xxp also, if your head is being repeatedly smashed into the sidewalk, how do you even have the wherewithal to pull out a gun and fire it? did Zimmerman shake his head like Curly from the Three Stooges, go "nyuk nyuk", and blast Martin from point blank?

what do people normally say when they get shot? "ouch!" or what?

Guess what I am saying is that it doesn't sound like Zimmerman shot Martin execution style. It does sound like he had a paranoid racist freak out and used deadly force unreasonably and it does sound like he's probably embellishing his story to make it sound reasonable. But I also know that stuff that sounds unlikely is occasionally true. So I don't think I could convict based on the evidence given the burden of proof.

― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, July 1, 2013 5:06 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think most of us believe this. can only speak for myself, but when I'm criticizing Zimmermann's story, I'm only stating what I think happened.

I wouldn't be surprised if he mistakenly thought Trayvon was armed (for at least some portion of the fray) given his paranoia towards black youths which was well-documented, and the numerous comments he made about Trayvon reaching into his waistband during his 911 call.

Having never been in the position of having to get a gun out of my pocket while on my back, I can't really speculate as to how easy it would be. Also if he completely made that part up, it would suggest that Zimmerman shot Martin after Martin was already off of him. Btw is there any ballistics evidence suggesting the firing angle and distance?

regardless of how the case turns out, the dialogue within the community is horribly fucked. there is animosity on all sides. as much as it sickens me so, there is a faction that is hardly a minority group that believes George is merely a victim of harassment and the police attempting to 'appease' the community. And as many people who have spoken critically about the need to repeal or strongly amend Stand Your Ground, it has to actually happen, and there aren't currently any strong indications that it will. There have been townhalls to discuss it around the state, but nothing to suggest that it's going to get a second look.

This isn't helped by the bill's author going out of his way to repeatedly suggest that the law is currently being used in a way he did not intend, attempting to blame law enforcement's interpretation rather than his own terrible bill. I'm just afraid that as soon as this trial ends, the conversation will be aborted.

ving never been in the position of having to get a gun out of my pocket while on my back, I can't really speculate as to how easy it would be. Also if he completely made that part up, it would suggest that Zimmerman shot Martin after Martin was already off of him. Btw is there any ballistics evidence suggesting the firing angle and distance?

― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, July 1, 2013 5:15 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Merely getting a gun out of a holster while on your back isn't necessarily the difficult part. But if you were being beaten as handily as you said you were, where you couldn't breathe or move, it would be hard to imagine how he could have easily retrieved the gun and fired it. but then again I'm not a ballistics expert so who knows. It was definitely a very close range shot though.

ie, my thought is the 'beating' wasn't as severe as he lead on, but that he probably was indeed on his back, given where his abrasions were.

This isn't helped by the bill's author going out of his way to repeatedly suggest that the law is currently being used in a way he did not intend, attempting to blame law enforcement's interpretation rather than his own terrible bill. I'm just afraid that as soon as this trial ends, the conversation will be aborted.

pretty sure 15 months is far too much time elapsed for anything to be aborted in Florida

lol

I guess I also don't have a clear understanding of how the "reasonableness" of one's fear of imminent bodily harm or death factors into things. I mean if a guy in a fight gets on top of you and bangs your head in the ground, it's possible for their to be a grey area where you might think he was trying to hurt you pretty bad even though you weren't actually getting hurt that bad. Which doesn't get into whether Zimmerman started the fight in the first place, but we don't have much evidence on whether or not he did. Although the "jumped out of the bushes" part in particular just sounds ridiculous.

But all the more reason why these stand your ground laws are terrible

If reasonableness isn't factored in, you're basically allowing people to use lethal force based on their own definition of what constitutes a "threat" (which is precisely what's wrong with SYG). are you willing to do that? I strongly recommend reading the case history (should be able to find via a google search, a Tampa newspaper put it together) of all cases that fell under SYG. In some cases, the initial aggressor was the one who felt 'threatened' and killed or shot the other party, and were not charged or convicted as a result of this interpretation. In some cases, these claims were dismissed by the judge. There's been no consistency.

I'm not even necessarily of the opinion that Trayvon initiated contact first 'validates' the shooting. Despite being taller, he weighed significantly less, and I doubt he could have killed him with his bare hands. If Zimmermann was having his airway cut off and in some imminent danger, than perhaps it wouldn't matter if Trayvon was armed, but the evidence (to me) doesn't support that. All we've ever had is Zimmermann's word. And even that's changed - their original story was that he did not pursue Trayvon at any time, until the audio came out confirming that he did exactly that.

which is to say, yes, most of us are of the opinion that George did profile and pursue Trayvon, either due to his own paranoia or other motivations, and killed him without proper provocation. That doesn't mean we believe that there's enough evidence to prove this in court, which barring some late development, there appears not to be.

i haven't ever had to shoot a stranger to stop him from killing me with his bare hands, but I have been in weird scrapes once or twice. can't imagine ever talking like this after.

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/trayvon-martin-trial-quote-police-interview

“It’s continuous screaming,” another officer asks, “how can you be smothered?”

Damn good question.

“You think he might have seen you had a gun before he punched you?” the first officer asks.

Another damn good question.

The police at this trial have lots of motivation not to get a conviction and to obscure the truth. I think the best criminal law system is generally one in which police fucking about = defendant walks, but I acknowledge that's a hard line to hold when police fucking about is designed to let a bad guy walk, and I also think a good prosecutor who wanted a conviction (and I have no reason to think these aren't good prosecutors, although I have strong doubts that conviction is the goal of anyone paid by the State of Florida) would take a much harder line with the police witnesses than has been the case so far. Let's see.

At least one cop had a fucking clue:

Sanford Police Detective Doris Singleton: Did you, at that time, ever say to him “I’m neighborhood watch”?

Zimmerman: No.

Officer Singleton: Did it not occur to you?

Zimmerman: No, I said, I don’t have a problem. And I started backing away from him

Officer Singleton: But you kinda did have a problem, that’s why you were following him, you had a concern with him.

Zimmerman: I was scared …

Officer Singleton: Too scared to tell him … that you were neighborhood watch? You were afraid to tell him that?

Zimmerman: Uh, … yes ma’am.

Officer Singleton: Look, I’m not trying to put you on the spot, but these are the questions people are going to ask and will seek out an answer. It seemed like a perfect opportunity to say “Look I’m neighborhood watch, I don’t recognize you, are you staying here?”

Zimmerman: Like I said, he came up out of nowhere … so when he popped up, he just caught me off guard, and …

Officer Singleton: But can you see how that would frighten him? That you had been following him now through the whole park…?

which is to say, yes, most of us are of the opinion that George did profile and pursue Trayvon, either due to his own paranoia or other motivations, and killed him without proper provocation. That doesn't mean we believe that there's enough evidence to prove this in court, which barring some late development, there appears not to be.

― Neanderthal, Monday, July 1, 2013 5:33 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah it's a tough call. The more I read of his story and the more I re-read his story, it really does read like complete bullshit. It would be a tough call if I were on the jury -- he's pretty obviously lying about at least some details of the story, so is that enough to feel comfortable deciding that the real story is very likely 2nd degree murder.

not really, but yes

ok fine. fry the fucker.

I don't think I could convict based on the evidence given the burden of proof.

― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, July 1, 2013 10:06 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wait are you inside the courtroom right now? Have you heard all the evidence?

hurting is george zimmerman

fuckin' punk

waterface there's this thing called 'television' see....

All I keep thinking about through this trial is how my parents bought vacation property in Florida and how they want us to come down and visit and in the back of my mind I keep thinking "is someone going to shoot me if I decide to go out to get Cheetos?" (nb I would never go out to get Cheetos because they're gross but you get what I mean)

I am not just happy with a trial. I will be pissed when this dude is acquitted, unless someone appears with some compelling evidence no one has yet seen that shows Trayvon tackling and strangling Zimmerman after Z gave up and started walking back towards his house. This is an emotional, revenge- and fear-based reaction that our judicial system is specifically designed to counteract and, right now, I honestly don't give a flying fuck. I believe dude is guilty and I believe he should be in jail. This is why I could never be on this jury.

waterface, I haven't literally looked at every single piece of evidence, but I think it's pretty clear what's out there. There's Zimmerman's statements to police, there's various conflicting witness testimony of varying reliability, none of which involves a clear contemporaneous view of what happened, there's whatever ballstics people can figure out from the gunshot, zimmerman's injuries, trayvon's injuries or lack thereof. There's the dispatcher call, which only gives a sense of the events leading to the events leading to the shooting. Unless I'm missing something it seems like the main things to go on are the physical evidence and the veracity or lack of veracity of his testimony. And it doesn't sound like the physical evidence is that conclusive but if I'm wrong someone point me the right way. So what's left as far as I see it is basically does Zimmerman's story make sense, and if not, is that enough to decide that he committed second degree murder. And his story doesn't make sense, so I think it's a close call. And a lot of the other stuff, as damning as it is, is kind of peripheral, e.g whether Zimmerman was racist, whether he was generally a little bit paranoid or quick to call the cops, etc. -- as much as that stuff makes it seem more likely to me that he's guilty, it's harder to get that stuff considered in court under most states' evidence rules, although I don't know Florida law specifically. But yeah, obviously I'm not in court and I don't know the case backwards and forwards and I could be talking out of my ass here.

All I keep thinking about through this trial is how my parents bought vacation property in Florida and how they want us to come down and visit and in the back of my mind I keep thinking "is someone going to shoot me if I decide to go out to get Cheetos?" (nb I would never go out to get Cheetos because they're gross but you get what I mean)

to be somewhat reassuring, Sanford is v much diff than the part of Florida you'd likely be going to.

if Zimmermann gets off IMO someone should intentionally commit a faux-mob execution at a restaurant he's eating at so that he has to waste the rest of his life in Witness Protection under the name "Perry Theroux-Peterman".

fuckin' punk
― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, July 2, 2013

Can anyone explain to me how it went from "fuckin' coon" to "fuckin' punk"? Or was that confirmation bias or some such thing? sure sounded like "coon" to me but maybe I was listening for that word.

yeah I agree. He claimed it was "punk," and then somehow the media decided that was true, and I don't get it because it sounds nothing at all like "punk" to me and exactly like "coon." I mean if he claimed "goon" that would at least be plausible, although kind of anachronistic.

I vaguely remember back when that audio came out they had some "audio experts" on various news stations examining it and saying that he could have been saying "punk."

it was analyzed by voice experts and the like iirc. I never heard "coon", though I didn't hear "punk" either - it was unintelligible to me for the most part. But it definitely didn't sound like "coon" to me. I have to think George wouldn't be that transparently dumb, similar to Trayvon jumping out of the bushes and screaming "I KILL YOU!", I think it was more wishful thinking by those seeking his prosecution.

not that "fucking punks" is really any better, as it still is categorizing folk and evidence of his profiling, it just isn't as specific.

also I think the instance of "punk" tha twas described within the last few days was from his police interview 3 days later, not the initial 911 call (hwere he also allegedly said this)

"fucking punks" makes Zimmerman sound like he jerks off to Dirty Harry DVDs

As it happens I just finished reading Sarah Burns's book The Central Park Five this weekend, and thinking about that and this case and how our culture treats black and Latino youth, it makes it clear that nothing has changed since then. If anything, it's gotten worse, as evidenced by the Bloomberg administration's magical thinking about stop-and-frisk.

The documentary about the Central Park 5 is excellent

I cannot believe Linda Fairstein is allowed to practice after seeing that. The whole doc made me sick to my stomach (and I was here in NYC when that all went down)

yeah - i should have said excellent, and entirely, profoundly enraging.

I need to see the doc now. Every single page of the book made me angrier and angrier.

I'd like to read that too. Did they address the counter-claims by the detectives that they still believe the Five were involved? Granted, such a claim isn't surprising given that they are doing damage control, but just curious as I've only heard about the sentence vacation bit.

It's only addressed briefly in the book, but yeah, it's the standard, "This just proves that Matias Reyes, who never ever ever had accomplices in any of his other rapes, participated in this rape with them." Also a particularly toxic pile of mouth shit from Ann Coulter.

Meanwhile, LOL Florida: Cop Testifying At Zimmerman Trial Wore Military Ribbons She Didn't Earn

Combat veteran Jeremiah Workman couldn't believe what he was seeing: a police officer testifying at the George Zimmerman murder trial was wearing military ribbons.
“Am I going blind or is this police officer in the Zimmerman-Martin trial wearing ribbons that she doesn’t rate?” He wrote beside a picture he posted to Facebook.

Gina Harkins of The Military Times saw his posting and reached out to Workman, who fought as a Marine in the second battle of Fallujah and was awarded the Navy Cross for valor.

She reports that Workman noticed two ribbons in particular — the World War II Army of Occupation Medal and the Defense Distinguished Service Medal.

Harkins writes "Workman got a hold of [The Sanford Police Department] and said they told him they didn’t have their own awards system, so they went to the Army-Navy store around the corner and picked out Defense Department military ribbons to fit their own format. The WWII was selected, the police department official told Workman, because they knew there weren’t many veterans from that period alive so they didn’t think people would notice."

lol Sanford

I can reassure you, Dan, that no one in my condo eats Cheetos.

The New Republic ‏@tnr 11m
Is Trayvon Martin's use of "cracker" the equivalent of a white person using the N-word? John McWhorter responds. http://on.tnr.com/14L5Ciy

jesus fucking christ i hate that angle of inquiry

admittedly I've never lived in Sanford, but my grandparents did when I was a kid, and I used to do theatre out there. I don't know much about their police dept other than they seem very much like the Keystone Kops.

One time I accidentally set off the theatre's alarm downtown (an area typically swarming with police). I was surprised that it took them pretty long to arrive, and when they did, they basically took my word that "oh lol it was just a mistake" and drove off. Even though I was in civilian clothes and they had no reason to believe I was affiliated with the theatre. I would have expected them to be more curious, given that the one time I set my home alarm off by mistake as a kid, the police came to the house and asked for some proof of it being my place (which being a kid, I could just show the pictures hanging on the walls).

On another instance, a cop hit our stage manager's SUV (apparently a stop sign was obscured by construction), and knocked her wheel clean off. Naturally, they managed to pin it all on her, despite her perfectly valid argument that a combination of said obstruction and irresponsible driving on the cop's part lead to the accident. (I didn't even like this stage manager, either!)