Rolling 'this is sexist' thread

What...about that fact? It's not a binary opposition, those aren't the only two options.

he tends to play off his book as more of an innocent self-help guide in his Kickstarter description

but what's frustrating is that nothing is stopping somebody from writing an ACTUALLY innocent self-help guide that would help lonely and/or socially inept 22-year-old men learn to put a better foot forward... I want to believe that such a book would be just as widely purchased and supported as this stuff is. But am I just wrong?

hurting i don't believe the antioch rules are the only alternative here. the point (and her gf is otmfm) is that makeout sessions are better for everyone involved if no one is cast in the role of goalie.

i'm guessing there are self-help guides that genuinely address the social rules that young adults have difficulty with but i'd guess that on the whole they are not targeted at or intersting to the same audience that buys PUA shit

like, there's a much broader psychosocial environment to be addressed before some boys wd be interested in reading a book about how to have fulfilling relationships with members of the opposite sex

i think perhaps the PUA stuff is basically an attempt to make an end-around the very difficult and fraught and complex idea of communicating with another person--since actually communicating makes you vulnerable to rejection, misunderstanding, embarrassment, etc. it's like this fantasy world where other people are transformed into blank vessels for your own desire.

if a grown woman wants to put her hand on his penis, she knows how to do it and will do it if she wants to. does it get more complicated than that? it's such a particularly strange example.

an innocuous book is good if the question you are trying to answer is "how do I get past my social anxiety?"

an innocuous book is not so helpful if the question is "how do I get someone else to touch my dick?"

lol no I definitely don't think the only two choices are antioch rules or PUA, to be clear. I also don't think there's anything wrong with a guy planning out in his mind how to make a night more likely to lead to a makeout session at his place (as long as he doesn't feel entitled to that happening!). As with a lot of this PUA stuff, it's the TERMS in which things are described that's more problematic than some of the advice.

I would be willing to venture that the norm for most of us is a scenario where consent is kind of tacit, or even passive? Like the guy goes in for a kiss and if the woman doesn't pull away, she gets kissed? Just as an example. I'm not saying THAT, specifically, is a problem (also I like kissing just fine), but if you extend that model all the way through a sitch where 2 ppl navigate first contact/relations, you can see that it gets problematic.

Of course irl in healthy interactions one person is NOT the "active" parter 100% of the time, that's what "enthusiastic consent" is about as far as I understand it? That both ppl have to have physically and/or verbally expressed that they want to do what is happening. But the author of and audience for this book and this rhetoric are not having healthy interactions and are being directed toward unhealthy ones where they are unrepentant aggressors and don't care about anything else.

DJP otm!
there's the "how to behave" part of his message and the "how to touch people" part of his message -- they're not the same and i was just trying to clarify that

How about if he doesnt want her to? xp to ll

I mean not nec the norm for what HAPPENS in our own lives, but the norm for an imaginary situation that you just envision quickly to see what comes to mind first, because what you can most easily imagine is by default some kind of norm even if it's unwelcome?

also this otm

But the author of and audience for this book and this rhetoric are not having healthy interactions and are being directed toward unhealthy ones where they are unrepentant aggressors and don't care about anything else.

oh and of course, if he doesn't want her to, he is probably not reading this inane book?

would be willing to venture that the norm for most of us is a scenario where consent is kind of tacit, or even passive? Like the guy goes in for a kiss and if the woman doesn't pull away, she gets kissed? Just as an example. I'm not saying THAT, specifically, is a problem (also I like kissing just fine), but if you extend that model all the way through a sitch where 2 ppl navigate first contact/relations, you can see that it gets problematic.

Of course irl in healthy interactions one person is NOT the "active" parter 100% of the time, that's what "enthusiastic consent" is about as far as I understand it? That both ppl have to have physically and/or verbally expressed that they want to do what is happening. But the author of and audience for this book and this rhetoric are not having healthy interactions and are being directed toward unhealthy ones where they are unrepentant aggressors and don't care about anything else.

― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, June 20, 2013 11:30 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ok I think we're basically agreeing then

Not rly the q tbf xp

We do agree about what is a healthy and good model, I think! But I was speaking more to this "I don't see how it's a guide to sexual assault, unless you actually want to use it to sexually assault someone" because it IS sexual assault to coerce someone into sexual situations without regard for their consent to participation.

I'm still lolling inside at the idea of whipping it out while telling oneself "I'm a LEADER"

We do agree about what is a healthy and good model, I think! But I was speaking more to this "I don't see how it's a guide to sexual assault, unless you actually want to use it to sexually assault someone" because it IS sexual assault to coerce someone into sexual situations without regard for their consent to participation.

― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, June 20, 2013 11:35 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah I think maybe I was jumping the gun on that without reading the quotes very carefully

I'm not a relationship expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I've managed to have healthy, good relationships where the whole 'boundaries' thing was easily defined without having to resort to awkward permission-asking or me saying "stop me when I start doing something that horrifies you". It involves communication (as said above) and also reading unspoken signals. Whereas one of my recent girlfriends was very into the physical early on, my most recent was up only up to a point, and this was easy to read, even though she didn't initially say why. And then she eventually opened up that she had been raped one year prior.

The problem with the "stop me when you're uncomfortable" approach is that it presupposes that the woman is comfortable with whatever you're doing if she doesn't speak up or stop things. When you put people in that position, they may be uncomfortable but might be afraid to say so.

Bad bitches, I'm your leader / Phantom by the meter / Somebody point me to the best ass eater

I just realized I was posting to this thread with the display name "keyser saucy vagina" :-/

It's ok. You're a LEADER

i feel like this is just a guide to seducing jailbait

which is obviously totally gross

how much money do you think I could make off of a satirical book called Wifey That Creepshot?

Just had to explain to some IRL asshole as to how pulling the campaign isn't a freedom of speech violation. no wonder we're in such bad shape.

Don't infringe my right to demand my rights that aren't my rights

okay dude's sex chapter is back up now and holy shit is it packed full of "btw NEVER DO THIS" gems

basically the entire chapter revolves around the premise that she owes you some sex and that these are some surefire tips to wear down her resistance and get you the sex you so richly deserve

like, here's the foundation of his thesis (bold copied from the source):

Never, ever, ever, wait for a SIGN before you escalate! You will miss out on the vast majority of chances if you sit around waiting for SIGNS. Men are notoriously bad at reading women's minds and body language. Don't think that you're any different. From now on you must ASSUME that she is attracted to you and wants to be ravished. It's a difference in mindset that makes champs champs and chumps chumps.

mmm, rapey

I mean, there is a tiny amount of mitigating context here, which is that this is supposed to be happening after you've met someone and had at least one successful date with them as opposed to an introductory gambit, but nearly enough to make "From now on you must ASSUME that she is attracted to you and wants to be ravished," a defensible thing to say.

like his entire gambit is "paw at her until she makes you stop", how the hell do you live with yourself after that

"you'll never understand her feelings so fuck her (in all senses)" seems pretty fundamental to The Problem so it's good that he bolded that part

yeah if anything this all seems designed at foreclosing any possibility of emotional (or even sexual) vulnerability. i can almost understand why it might appeal (I presume) to young men just beginning to navigate sexual and romantic relationships because it presumes to mitigate those risks.

champs champs and chumps chumps

if anything this all seems designed at foreclosing any possibility of emotional vulnerability connection with half the human race (or possibly all of it)

(this post brought to you by Pointing out the Obvious Industries, Inc.)

haha yeah its true it sorta elevates that stuff into antisocial pathologies rather than normal anxieties.

wtf my post was supposed to say "but not nearly enough"

the ridiculous claims of censorship make me want to vomit IRL

You: How were your classes today?

Girl: Not bad.

You: Cool. Any plans for the summer?

Girl: Not yet... looks away, disinterested

You (recognizing the situation): You know, this conversation is boring. Let's talk about something more exciting.

Girl: What?

You: Yeah, let's mix it up. Here's a question for you... Why is Japanese porn so weird?

Girl: LOL what? Uh...

You: Seriously, they do the most depraved things ever and then blur out the genitals so it's supposed to be OK or something.

Girl: You know a lot about Japanese porn, dude.

You: Yeah, I was a world-class masturbator when I was 13.

Girl: LOL

You: Hah bet you never thought you'd be discussing my middle school masturbation habits, huh?

Girl: Hah can't say I did.

You: Anyway, walk with me a second, I need to check on something.

I chose this example because I'm a guy who wants girls who are comfortable laughing about topics like porn. I spent time reflecting on the qualities I like in a girl (As listed in the section on Qualifying Women in Part 4) and want to make sure any girl I speak to is okay with that.

"can't say I did"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/Leaderhulk.PNG

I am devastated and troubled by the allegations that my book, Above The Game: A Guide to Getting Awesome with Women, promotes rape. That couldn't be further from the truth. A handful of quotes were taken out of context and posted on Tumblr which steamrolled in a game of telephone where hardly anyone bothered to read the original version.

People took advice from a section on "Physical Escalation & Sex" and posted them online. Devoid of context, they appeared to be promoting sexually assaulting women when that wasn't the case at all.

The gist of the controversial advice is "Don't wait for signs before you make your move. Let her be the one who rejects your advances. If she says no, stop immediately and tell her you don't want to do anything that would make her uncomfortable. Try again at a later time if appropriate or cease entirely if she is absolutely not interested."

The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around. If "Don't wait for signs, make the first move" promotes sexual assault, then "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid was a song about rape.

That cherry-picked advice, without that important context, makes it sound like I am advocating non-consensual sexual advances on strangers. I would absolutely never do such a thing.

In fact there is an entire section on consent that the bloggers conveniently left out to paint me in a poor light:

These are copied verbatim from Above The Game:

IMPORTANT NOTE ON RESISTANCE:

If at any point a girl wants you to stop, she will let you know. If she says "STOP," or "GET AWAY FROM ME," or shoves you away, you know she is not interested. It happens. Stop escalating immediately and say this line:

"No problem. I don't want you to do anything you aren't comfortable with."

Memorize that line. It is your go-to when faced with resistance. Say it genuinely, without presumption. All master seducers are also masters at making women feel comfortable. You'll be no different. If a woman isn't comfortable, take a break and try again later.

Of course if you're really unclear, back off. Better safe than sorry.

---

You understand that honesty is the greatest aphrodisiac.
With great power comes great responsibility. You understand to your core that her heart will be broken if she ever feels manipulated by you. You literally have the power to color all her future interactions with men. As such, you demonstrate supreme desire without a drop of presumption. You make your intentions clear. She will never put you in the friend zone. You approach authentically. You leave her better than when you find her.

---

Additionally, the book contains an entire chapter on sexual assault & rape, preaching men what not to do. Of course no one has seen those parts yet because the book hasn't been released yet.

I realize these are delicate issues, but I ask people to lower their pitchforks until they take the time to hear the full story.

Thank you.

take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later take a break and try again later

I like that he doesn't actually recognize that the phrase Stop escalating immediately and say this line: is intensely problematic in and of itself since it reduces actually caring about crossing someone else's boundaries into a performance process intended to make it easier to make the person have sex with you later.

if a grown woman wants to put her hand on his penis, she knows how to do it and will do it if she wants to. does it get more complicated than that? it's such a particularly strange example.

― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, June 20, 2013 11:28 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the whole PUA ideology is built on the assumption that women have no idea what they really want (what they really want is your penis, dear reader)

Squee!

"Reader, I touched his penis."

"Yeah, I'd like to suck on some of that!"