helpful link to salon piece to avoid daily mail clickthroughs:
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/19/kickstarter_pickup_artist_on_sleeping_with_women_expect_her_to_offer_some_resistance/
― nagl dude dude dude (ledge), Thursday, 20 June 2013 12:55 (ten years ago) link
I love how he uses "plausible deniability" as if it's a mindblowing phrase. Couldn't believe I saw an apologetic who was also repulsed by the content but said the piece was 'well written'. This dude's a terrible writer on top of being a terrible human being.
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 13:16 (ten years ago) link
"let's check out that latest youtube video" seems like a real deal-closer of a line tbf
― dimension nickröss (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 20 June 2013 13:19 (ten years ago) link
esp since you don't need to go to anybody's house to do that in 2013.
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 13:22 (ten years ago) link
guide for getting good a what?this guy is a total clown
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 13:59 (ten years ago) link
sexist doesn't even begin to describe what that guy is
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:00 (ten years ago) link
omg i kept reading and it was just nonstop looooool what a confused and deeply horrible loser this guy is
It’s your job, as the man, to make her as comfortable as possible. Also when you start to fool around, “I don’t kiss and tell.” goes a long, long way.
katie mcdonough otm here
This kind of utilitarian mapping of human interaction (guided by pretty misogynistic notions about women, power and consent) eliminates crucial dynamics (and the fun and eroticism, frankly) of flirting and pre-sex encounters.
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:12 (ten years ago) link
as far as I can tell, the main cheat codes to unlocking successful human interaction are:
- be clean- be nice
― keyser saucy vagina (DJP), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:14 (ten years ago) link
get her to open her mouth wide and then http://www.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/legacy/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/game_genie_nes.jpg
― Mordy , Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:21 (ten years ago) link
jesus can someone put a trigger warning on that please?
― resulting post (rogermexico.), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:22 (ten years ago) link
I can't tell if the majority of dude's contributions came before or after the campaign blew up all over the internet.
If after, then it sucks that, similar to the Chic-Fil-A deal, that valid and well-intentioned protest inadvertently created a hype machine that gave this asshat more funding. But I don't think he would have had difficulty getting funding without it either, sadly.
There's a passage in there which instructs the guy to put the girl's hand on his penis without asking permission. Yeah.
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:30 (ten years ago) link
who published it? what's their deal? i mean, someone had to produce/distribute this book. someone must have read it. what's that person's excuse?
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:35 (ten years ago) link
PERSONCOTT KICKSTARTER
― resulting post (rogermexico.), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:38 (ten years ago) link
oh righthe's depressing enough on his own, but add all that and i think it's just too much gross for me to handleit makes me too disappointed in everyone and everything
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:40 (ten years ago) link
― Neanderthal, Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:30 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
tbf "May I place your hand upon my penis" is probably not going to kick off a fun evening either. I mean there's context for everything, but imo it's not that hard to not sexually assault someone -- if they say they don't want something or pull away, you stop. Asking verbal permission for every single act first just seems like the way almost no one actually does things and few people actually want to do things, and if I'm being some kind of obtuse, mysoginistic caveman for saying so, then please correct me. I find the PUA approach, but I don't see how it's a guide to sexual assault, unless you actually want to use it to sexually assault someone.
― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:51 (ten years ago) link
"I find the PUA approach GROSS, but..."
is what that should say
Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick.
This is the actual quote.
― keyser saucy vagina (DJP), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:54 (ten years ago) link
lol
― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:56 (ten years ago) link
ok, yeah
― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:57 (ten years ago) link
Is Put your hands on your hips and bend your knees in tight the next line?
― The drone that was played caused panic and confusion (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:58 (ten years ago) link
xpost lol sry about that, in going from memory I butchered the quote and the context.
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:59 (ten years ago) link
i remember the antioch rules -- they were widely mocked at the time and rarely employed. i had a close friend there and her stories were always wilder than mine.
it's the utter cluelessness and following mentality of kickstarter funders that make me feel the most deeply bummed, i think. how many people gave money to this guy?
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:00 (ten years ago) link
I wonder how many were misguided "don't let them censor your horrible beliefs" activists. The other thing is that many may not have read the Reddit with his content, as he tends to play off his book as more of an innocent self-help guide in his Kickstarter description...which of course, it is not.
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:05 (ten years ago) link
yeah I wouldn't wonder about that too deeply
― keyser saucy vagina (DJP), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:06 (ten years ago) link
can we just exile them and all 50 Shades readers to an island
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link
The problem with what you initially said, hurting, is that the kind of guy who reads this type of ”self-help” book is the kind of guy who lacks social skills and the ability to pick up on social cues - so they really don't need to be encouraged with the whole ”no means yes” bullshit.
There were a bunch of people posting the same thing when ned posted the link on facebook, they were more concerned about ~ censorship ~ than the fact that this guy is promoting sexual and physical assault.
― just1n3, Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:11 (ten years ago) link
I can't find the link atm but a few months ago I read an article about a woman musing on how much space women are given to say "no" to sexual overtures and acts--the part that stuck is where she was making out w her gf for the first time and said, "Just tell me when to stop" and her gf stopped the make-out and rejected the whole model in which one person pushes until one person resists, no matter what the genders of the parties are. She's right, that model for consent totally blows! Forcing yourself on someone up until they have to say "NO!" is terrible! And this guy is saying, take it even further, make her forcefully physically reject you if she wants you to stop coercing her into sexual situations.
He is directly in line with sexual violence against women. Right in line. It's not even different.
― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:13 (ten years ago) link
"She's right, that model for consent totally blows! Forcing yourself on someone up until they have to say "NO!" is terrible! "
I understand your point, but what about the fact that a lot of people find constant "is this ok?" and "can I do x" to be a turn-off?
― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:17 (ten years ago) link
What...about that fact? It's not a binary opposition, those aren't the only two options.
― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:19 (ten years ago) link
he tends to play off his book as more of an innocent self-help guide in his Kickstarter description
but what's frustrating is that nothing is stopping somebody from writing an ACTUALLY innocent self-help guide that would help lonely and/or socially inept 22-year-old men learn to put a better foot forward... I want to believe that such a book would be just as widely purchased and supported as this stuff is. But am I just wrong?
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:20 (ten years ago) link
hurting i don't believe the antioch rules are the only alternative here. the point (and her gf is otmfm) is that makeout sessions are better for everyone involved if no one is cast in the role of goalie.
― resulting post (rogermexico.), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:22 (ten years ago) link
i'm guessing there are self-help guides that genuinely address the social rules that young adults have difficulty with but i'd guess that on the whole they are not targeted at or intersting to the same audience that buys PUA shit
― The drone that was played caused panic and confusion (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:26 (ten years ago) link
like, there's a much broader psychosocial environment to be addressed before some boys wd be interested in reading a book about how to have fulfilling relationships with members of the opposite sex
― The drone that was played caused panic and confusion (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:28 (ten years ago) link
i think perhaps the PUA stuff is basically an attempt to make an end-around the very difficult and fraught and complex idea of communicating with another person--since actually communicating makes you vulnerable to rejection, misunderstanding, embarrassment, etc. it's like this fantasy world where other people are transformed into blank vessels for your own desire.
― ryan, Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:28 (ten years ago) link
if a grown woman wants to put her hand on his penis, she knows how to do it and will do it if she wants to. does it get more complicated than that? it's such a particularly strange example.
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:28 (ten years ago) link
an innocuous book is good if the question you are trying to answer is "how do I get past my social anxiety?"
an innocuous book is not so helpful if the question is "how do I get someone else to touch my dick?"
― keyser saucy vagina (DJP), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:29 (ten years ago) link
lol no I definitely don't think the only two choices are antioch rules or PUA, to be clear. I also don't think there's anything wrong with a guy planning out in his mind how to make a night more likely to lead to a makeout session at his place (as long as he doesn't feel entitled to that happening!). As with a lot of this PUA stuff, it's the TERMS in which things are described that's more problematic than some of the advice.
― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:29 (ten years ago) link
I would be willing to venture that the norm for most of us is a scenario where consent is kind of tacit, or even passive? Like the guy goes in for a kiss and if the woman doesn't pull away, she gets kissed? Just as an example. I'm not saying THAT, specifically, is a problem (also I like kissing just fine), but if you extend that model all the way through a sitch where 2 ppl navigate first contact/relations, you can see that it gets problematic.
Of course irl in healthy interactions one person is NOT the "active" parter 100% of the time, that's what "enthusiastic consent" is about as far as I understand it? That both ppl have to have physically and/or verbally expressed that they want to do what is happening. But the author of and audience for this book and this rhetoric are not having healthy interactions and are being directed toward unhealthy ones where they are unrepentant aggressors and don't care about anything else.
― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:30 (ten years ago) link
DJP otm! there's the "how to behave" part of his message and the "how to touch people" part of his message -- they're not the same and i was just trying to clarify that
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:30 (ten years ago) link
How about if he doesnt want her to? xp to ll
― should we bin tapping? (darraghmac), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:31 (ten years ago) link
I mean not nec the norm for what HAPPENS in our own lives, but the norm for an imaginary situation that you just envision quickly to see what comes to mind first, because what you can most easily imagine is by default some kind of norm even if it's unwelcome?
― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:31 (ten years ago) link
also this otm
But the author of and audience for this book and this rhetoric are not having healthy interactions and are being directed toward unhealthy ones where they are unrepentant aggressors and don't care about anything else.
oh and of course, if he doesn't want her to, he is probably not reading this inane book?
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:32 (ten years ago) link
would be willing to venture that the norm for most of us is a scenario where consent is kind of tacit, or even passive? Like the guy goes in for a kiss and if the woman doesn't pull away, she gets kissed? Just as an example. I'm not saying THAT, specifically, is a problem (also I like kissing just fine), but if you extend that model all the way through a sitch where 2 ppl navigate first contact/relations, you can see that it gets problematic.
― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, June 20, 2013 11:30 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
ok I think we're basically agreeing then
― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:33 (ten years ago) link
Not rly the q tbf xp
― should we bin tapping? (darraghmac), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:34 (ten years ago) link
We do agree about what is a healthy and good model, I think! But I was speaking more to this "I don't see how it's a guide to sexual assault, unless you actually want to use it to sexually assault someone" because it IS sexual assault to coerce someone into sexual situations without regard for their consent to participation.
― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:35 (ten years ago) link
I'm still lolling inside at the idea of whipping it out while telling oneself "I'm a LEADER"
― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:36 (ten years ago) link
― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, June 20, 2013 11:35 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yeah I think maybe I was jumping the gun on that without reading the quotes very carefully
I'm not a relationship expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I've managed to have healthy, good relationships where the whole 'boundaries' thing was easily defined without having to resort to awkward permission-asking or me saying "stop me when I start doing something that horrifies you". It involves communication (as said above) and also reading unspoken signals. Whereas one of my recent girlfriends was very into the physical early on, my most recent was up only up to a point, and this was easy to read, even though she didn't initially say why. And then she eventually opened up that she had been raped one year prior.
The problem with the "stop me when you're uncomfortable" approach is that it presupposes that the woman is comfortable with whatever you're doing if she doesn't speak up or stop things. When you put people in that position, they may be uncomfortable but might be afraid to say so.
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:38 (ten years ago) link
Bad bitches, I'm your leader / Phantom by the meter / Somebody point me to the best ass eater
― 乒乓, Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:40 (ten years ago) link
I just realized I was posting to this thread with the display name "keyser saucy vagina" :-/
― DJP, Thursday, 20 June 2013 15:41 (ten years ago) link