it's the idea that self-harm is a _choice_ and somehow fundamentally a _"female choice"_ that's getting to me.
if this was a pictorial of men dressed as writers who were known to be violent (or specifically, violent toward women) with scraped knuckles and blood on their hands, would it be ok?
(a bridge too far there, maybe, but...)
― mh, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 19:37 (ten years ago) link
yeah, i felt uncomfortable making that statement. i think that statement was based on the amount of women writers that address selfharm vs. male writers on the same topic.
part of what makes the women in the series important is that they wrote about selfharm/suicide in a way that hadn't been done before, right? so it seems unfair to shut down this little college project vice thing for going the same places.
― dylannn, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 19:38 (ten years ago) link
idk -- it's only "part of", and by making the series focus only on the depression/self-harm/suicide issue these writers are once again being reduced only to that aspect.
― ✌_✌ (c sharp major), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 19:40 (ten years ago) link
Hard not to see any statement about female writers & self-harm as some kind of confirmation bias, a bias really promoted by this photo spread.
― even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 19:42 (ten years ago) link
Wld have been really daring to have some fashion dingdong photo spread based on Joanna Russ's How To Suppress Women's Writing.
― even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 19:44 (ten years ago) link
xp to self: like, i wouldn't argue with the idea that one of the most important things in charlotte perkins gilman's writing is how she deals with the question of a woman's mental health -- but placing her in a suicidal-depression pantheon doesn't do anything to highlight that, and in fact obscures our sense of how she described and contextualised the problem of female "madness".
― ✌_✌ (c sharp major), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 19:49 (ten years ago) link
http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/06/talking-female-suicide-right-wrong-vice-way.html
― ty based gay dead computer god (zachlyon), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 20:58 (ten years ago) link
Talking Famous Female Suicide Blues
― PappaWheelie on the zeitgeist (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 21:05 (ten years ago) link
this is such an unbelievably boring controversy, though i didn't know before that there was a female suicide stereotype so i guess thanks for that
― sleepingbag, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 21:09 (ten years ago) link
I think "people in the process of killing themselves" is a problem, and "women, and only women, in the process of killing themselves" is a problem in an even bigger and probably blinking font.
out of the context of this being in an issue of Vice dedicated to women in fiction I have no idea how I'd take it, but their juxtaposition of this art against work and interviews with contemporary writers is gross in a way that Vice tries to pull off when they feel like they might be taken seriously
all of this, basically
― should we bin tapping? (darraghmac), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 21:16 (ten years ago) link
The styling of the shoot is no big deal, not special, not all that artistic. It's hard to duck fast enough to avoid the message that the only good female writer is a dead female writer, though.
― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 21:20 (ten years ago) link
I like that NYMag piece by Michelle Dean.
― mh, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 21:44 (ten years ago) link
'female writers suicides' is such a zoolander theme i cant even tho
― should we bin tapping? (darraghmac), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 21:54 (ten years ago) link
i was thinking more bruno, but yeah
― stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 22:51 (ten years ago) link
― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:20 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
There's quite a number of things one can hold against this photoshoot, but 'the only good female writer is a dead female writer'? Not picking up that vibe tbh.
Can't call this a sexist thing either. Mysoginist, appalling, a generally terrible idea? Certainly. But sexist?
― Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 23:33 (ten years ago) link
wait how can something be misogynist but not sexist i dont understand
― stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 23:38 (ten years ago) link
it's not true that the only good female writer is a dead one, but in order to be a GREAT writer she's gotta kill herself.
― ⚓ (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 23:43 (ten years ago) link
i'm sorry if that's a bit flippant but there's the fallacy of genius as madness and then there's the notion (cited in the article zavhlyon posted) that the only violence a woman can commit is against herself so... here we are, i guess
― ⚓ (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 23:45 (ten years ago) link
Rob Delaney Tweeted this: I just saw the VICE female author suicide fashion show and had a hearty LOL. I say this as a mentally ill person under a doctor's care.
...but seems to have removed it. He goes into more detail here, and it's interesting even if I disagree with some/most/a lot/all-ish of it:
http://robdelaney.tumblr.com/post/53302764977/hi-rob-im-a-huge-fan-i-love-all-your-writings-on
― Walter Galt, Wednesday, 19 June 2013 12:31 (ten years ago) link
ugh that guy
― ⚓ (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 13:36 (ten years ago) link
that same decision process made me roll my eyes back in my head and groan, so one man's humor is another man's recognition that this was some weak-ass vice-style trolling
― mh, Wednesday, 19 June 2013 13:47 (ten years ago) link
any guy who tries to demonstrate pro-feminist bona fides by saying "i am a guy who loves women" can go live in a dumpster for all i care tbh
― ⚓ (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 13:56 (ten years ago) link
let me run that past my many female friends for feedback
― mh, Wednesday, 19 June 2013 14:02 (ten years ago) link
LOL OTM (xp)
― Bees Against Racism (Tom D.), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 14:02 (ten years ago) link
You guys seem not to have noticed the stylist and photographer who did that shoot were both women. It's still a stupid idea (I like Crabbits' much better) and I can just imagine the editorial meeting where they presented it.
― on the sidelines dishing out sass (suzy), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 14:18 (ten years ago) link
You guys seem not to have noticed the stylist and photographer who did that shoot were both women.
IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THE PATRIARCHY
― 誤訳侮辱, Wednesday, 19 June 2013 14:24 (ten years ago) link
that was mentioned once or twice, yes
― mh, Wednesday, 19 June 2013 14:29 (ten years ago) link
Women in fashion industry sometimes fall prey to false consciousness, film at 11!
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 14:31 (ten years ago) link
Thanks for letting me in on what women in the fashion industry do, I would never have known unless you intervened.
― on the sidelines dishing out sass (suzy), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 14:39 (ten years ago) link
sure you could only lol tbh
― should we bin tapping? (darraghmac), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 15:32 (ten years ago) link
Yes, you're better positioned than most to know that women in fashion often participate in fucked-up shit. So maybe don't whip out "but the photographer and stylist were women!" as if it's supposed to be some sort of trump card? idk
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 15:40 (ten years ago) link
Especially when it's prefaced by "You guys seem not to have noticed," which I guess was supposed to make everyone go, "Oh, well that changes EVERYTHING."
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 15:41 (ten years ago) link
I am actually w Lamp on this one. Kind of a huge bummer that we've p much shuffled past the death of Lenora Ivie Frago and have spent 3x as many posts wringing our hands over Vice one more time.
― my autocorrect is in Spanish right now (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, 20 June 2013 07:59 (ten years ago) link
Don't think this warrants further discussion (other than "fuck this guy"):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2344635/Misogynistic-pickup-artist-raises-17-000-Kickstarter-dating-guide-sleep-woman-shes-resisting-going-home-you.html
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 12:53 (ten years ago) link
helpful link to salon piece to avoid daily mail clickthroughs:
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/19/kickstarter_pickup_artist_on_sleeping_with_women_expect_her_to_offer_some_resistance/
― nagl dude dude dude (ledge), Thursday, 20 June 2013 12:55 (ten years ago) link
I love how he uses "plausible deniability" as if it's a mindblowing phrase. Couldn't believe I saw an apologetic who was also repulsed by the content but said the piece was 'well written'. This dude's a terrible writer on top of being a terrible human being.
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 13:16 (ten years ago) link
"let's check out that latest youtube video" seems like a real deal-closer of a line tbf
― dimension nickröss (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 20 June 2013 13:19 (ten years ago) link
esp since you don't need to go to anybody's house to do that in 2013.
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 13:22 (ten years ago) link
guide for getting good a what?this guy is a total clown
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 13:59 (ten years ago) link
sexist doesn't even begin to describe what that guy is
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:00 (ten years ago) link
omg i kept reading and it was just nonstop looooool what a confused and deeply horrible loser this guy is
It’s your job, as the man, to make her as comfortable as possible. Also when you start to fool around, “I don’t kiss and tell.” goes a long, long way.
katie mcdonough otm here
This kind of utilitarian mapping of human interaction (guided by pretty misogynistic notions about women, power and consent) eliminates crucial dynamics (and the fun and eroticism, frankly) of flirting and pre-sex encounters.
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:12 (ten years ago) link
as far as I can tell, the main cheat codes to unlocking successful human interaction are:
- be clean- be nice
― keyser saucy vagina (DJP), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:14 (ten years ago) link
get her to open her mouth wide and then http://www.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/legacy/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/game_genie_nes.jpg
― Mordy , Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:21 (ten years ago) link
jesus can someone put a trigger warning on that please?
― resulting post (rogermexico.), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:22 (ten years ago) link
I can't tell if the majority of dude's contributions came before or after the campaign blew up all over the internet.
If after, then it sucks that, similar to the Chic-Fil-A deal, that valid and well-intentioned protest inadvertently created a hype machine that gave this asshat more funding. But I don't think he would have had difficulty getting funding without it either, sadly.
There's a passage in there which instructs the guy to put the girl's hand on his penis without asking permission. Yeah.
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:30 (ten years ago) link
who published it? what's their deal? i mean, someone had to produce/distribute this book. someone must have read it. what's that person's excuse?
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:35 (ten years ago) link
PERSONCOTT KICKSTARTER
― resulting post (rogermexico.), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:38 (ten years ago) link
oh righthe's depressing enough on his own, but add all that and i think it's just too much gross for me to handleit makes me too disappointed in everyone and everything
― free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:40 (ten years ago) link
― Neanderthal, Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:30 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
tbf "May I place your hand upon my penis" is probably not going to kick off a fun evening either. I mean there's context for everything, but imo it's not that hard to not sexually assault someone -- if they say they don't want something or pull away, you stop. Asking verbal permission for every single act first just seems like the way almost no one actually does things and few people actually want to do things, and if I'm being some kind of obtuse, mysoginistic caveman for saying so, then please correct me. I find the PUA approach, but I don't see how it's a guide to sexual assault, unless you actually want to use it to sexually assault someone.
― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:51 (ten years ago) link
"I find the PUA approach GROSS, but..."
is what that should say