Is this anti-semitism?

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well i think you need a fair amount of cognitive dissonance to be an evangelical and just *live*. I guess my point was that there is a certain section of evangelical zionists who don't give a shit about the welfare of Jewish people or what they do, just as long as they serve their purpose as foretold by their interpretation of the Bible.

Gukbe, Monday, 17 June 2013 06:19 (ten years ago) link

Ah I see. I totally agree. They are some really creepy bastards -- I remember seeing a documentary (a TV one I think)? from a while back and this one guy one's a ranch where he raises only red heifers and attempts to breed one with the exact color described in the bible.

This Is My Design, and I Used Helvetica (Viceroy), Monday, 17 June 2013 06:24 (ten years ago) link

A lot of evangelicals believe that other protestant christians of different denominations are going to hell, so how much can they really care about a religion that doesn't consider Jesus the Son of God? At best there is a belief that "Israel is our ally" and they're going to help stop the invading muslim hordes, but it's all self-serving.

Hell, I was taught in elementary school that the rapture would come when there was peace in the middle east, so i actively prayed that there would not be peace so the rapture wouldn't happen. Bunch of nutjobs but, hey, religion ya know.

Gukbe, Monday, 17 June 2013 06:33 (ten years ago) link

IT'S YOUR FAULT

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 17 June 2013 14:34 (ten years ago) link

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yLNK4V1XOpk/Tzf9iWHJLvI/AAAAAAAAA4A/W85H7r5nGZg/s1600/Grimms%2Bcover%2BBritish%2BLibrary.jpg

lol going through this book w my daughter, gonna have some explaining to do about "The Jew in the Thorns" and a few other tales. on one hand I appreciate the inclination to preserve these kinds of things in as close to their original state as possible (preface makes a big deal about how this is the exact reproduction of a version the editor had as a child etc), because this is how things were and the historical record shouldn't be whitewashed or cleaned up. these stories are violent, weird, racist, dreamlike and paint a picture of bygone worlds. otoh I'm always kind of taken aback when I stumble unexpectedly against something in material for children that will require a bunch of explanation on my part (see also my mo-in-law's copy of Little Black Sambo ugh)

temporarily embarassed millionaire (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 June 2013 23:34 (ten years ago) link

the story in question

charming!

I like how the protagonist in these stories often unfairly provokes/tortures/maligns the Jew, only to have the Jew try to redress grievances, overplay his hand, and meet his "deserved" doom.

temporarily embarassed millionaire (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 June 2013 23:35 (ten years ago) link

Reminds me of that Louis CK bit about having to explain his racist grandmother,

Gukbe, Monday, 17 June 2013 23:35 (ten years ago) link

i wrote about that story in grad school!

Mordy , Monday, 17 June 2013 23:44 (ten years ago) link

shakey, let me know if u want to see it - apparently i've got it saved as a .doc on this computer

Mordy , Monday, 17 June 2013 23:45 (ten years ago) link

haha sure why not

temporarily embarassed millionaire (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 June 2013 23:48 (ten years ago) link

wow, what a bizarre story. almost nihilistic.

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 01:58 (ten years ago) link

The real villain seems to be the rich man who decides not to pay his servant just because he can get away with it. If anything, it's the master who behaves like the stereotype of the "Jew." Yet the master isn't mentioned again in the story. Meanwhile we don't even know if the Jew really stole the money or is merely confessing to end the torture -- after all, he falsely states that the servant "honestly earned it."

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 02:03 (ten years ago) link

Mordy, perhaps you've looked into this -- depending on if this was early or late middle ages a heller was either worth quite a bit or nearly worthless. Are we supposed to think that all this was over a small fortune, or mere pocket change? I'm not sure if it matters much since TBH this tale makes no fuckin' sense to me at all, but it would be some interesting context.

This Is My Design, and I Used Helvetica (Viceroy), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 03:58 (ten years ago) link

It's implied that a heller is very little:

With this he put his hand into his pocket, then counted out three hellers one at a time, saying, "There, you have a heller for each year. That is a large and generous reward. Only a few masters would pay you this much."

The good servant, who understood little about money, put his wealth into his pocket, and thought, "Ah, now that I have a full purse, why should I worry and continue to plague myself with hard work?"

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 04:00 (ten years ago) link

Also interesting is the footnote that said the original story featured a Christian monk instead of a Jew.

nickn, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 05:56 (ten years ago) link

Reading Child's Ballads it disquieting how many of the songs are anti-semitic, or have anti-semitic variations. It's not like Scotland was famed for it's huge Jewish population - so strange that all these fishermen chose to sing about such things.

the so-called socialista (dowd), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 06:30 (ten years ago) link

some of the most anti-semitic places in the world have very few or no jews

people back in earlier centuries wouldn't even have thought of them as "anti-semitic" -- they're just like anything else, commonly accepted generalizations.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 06:39 (ten years ago) link

Anti-semitic Child's Ballads? Never heard of that before.

Bees Against Racism (Tom D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 13:51 (ten years ago) link

I think in some cultures "Jew" was something in between an archetype and a mythic creature, rather than a person you met on the street.

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link

hurting i sent u webmail btw

Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link

thx, don't check that address that much, will check

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:15 (ten years ago) link

Interesting, well that's a new one on me!

Bees Against Racism (Tom D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:44 (ten years ago) link

I think in some cultures "Jew" was something in between an archetype and a mythic creature, rather than a person you met on the street.

- but spinoza didn't believe in the holy trinity.

- spinoza was a jew.

- what's a jew?

- you never saw a jew before? here. i have some sketches.

- no kidding! do they all have these horns?

- no. this is the russian jew. the german jew has these stripes.

the white queen and her caustic judgments (difficult listening hour), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:49 (ten years ago) link

x-post

Yeah, it's odd because of the universal 'lose a ball in someone's garden' idea - that house on your street you run past as a kid. Only this time it's used as blood libel.

the so-called socialista (dowd), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:49 (ten years ago) link

lol dfl

temporarily embarassed millionaire (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 16:04 (ten years ago) link

er dlh

temporarily embarassed millionaire (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 16:04 (ten years ago) link

I like how the protagonist in these stories often unfairly provokes/tortures/maligns the Jew, only to have the Jew try to redress grievances, overplay his hand, and meet his "deserved" doom.

― temporarily embarassed millionaire (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, June 17, 2013 7:35 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

isnt this kind of the merchant of venice

we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 19:21 (ten years ago) link

I think in some cultures "Jew" was something in between an archetype and a mythic creature, rather than a person you met on the street.

― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:07 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

such as the suburbs of toronto ime

we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 19:21 (ten years ago) link

That stuff about pinkwashing upthread is interesting.

Jayson Littman, a New York-based organizer of social events for gay Jewish men who has led gay-themed Birthright trips to Israel. Last spring, Littman sent a proposal titled “The Myth of Pinkwashing,” which, along the line of Jonathan Miller’s, explained that the Israeli government’s advertising its gay life is primarily about tourism dollars, not propaganda.

I've been looking for Littman's article mentioned here and can't find it. However, is there really that secure a boundary between a country doing something for 'tourism dollars' vs for 'propaganda'? I mean it's not like, for Israel or for any country, money from tourists only goes into special, benign parts of the economy, is it? Large (economically significant) groups of people coming to spend money in a country, contribute that money to whatever that country is currently doing, including e.g. paying for someone's hotel or museum to stay open but also e.g. paying for that country's war effort.

This is also, of course, v. relevant to Saudi Arabia and indeed the US and the UK and their tourist industries.

cardamon, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 21:28 (ten years ago) link

Yeah but starting from that premise anything does for tourism or exports would be ____washing. Is promoting christian holy sites "christwashing"? Is selling jaffa oranges abroad "fruitwashing"? I mean if you believe in complete boycott/divestiture, fine. But I don't get what is particularly sinister about Israel promoting openness to gay and lesbian culture.

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 21:33 (ten years ago) link

But I don't get what is particularly sinister about Israel promoting openness to gay and lesbian culture.

I don't know if there actually is anything sinister about it. At last when you put it in those terms.

But if pressed to 'find something sinister about it' ... a nasty part of me envisions a certain kind of stupid, materialistic person - who could be straight or gay, male or female - who likes traveling and partying and having fun. And this demographic doesn't give a fuck about, like, some oppression or like some war or something over in (wherever it is) because (wherever it is) has these great beaches, and cool nightclubs where you can drink alcohol, and take drugs, and have sex with attractive people!

Which seems pretty sinister. If these people exist. Sometimes I think they do, sometimes I think I'm being weird and hung up (cough and/or a massive hypocrite).

But Israel being 'open to gay and lesbian people', obvs only a good thing. When you put it like that, in idealistic terms.

It's more the party party fun fun we don't give a fuck culture I find sinister, really, and the way Israel (or, as should be made clear, literally any other country you care to name) can tap into that as source for money and a good image as a party party sort of place. Such that when that country bombs a few schools or whatever, people in the US and the UK think 'Oh, they're the party party place, they must have a good reason for bombing those schools or whatever'.

And the way that that party party let's all party culture is now absorbing something called 'being gay', at least in the UK, or well, at least in cardamon's nasty little box he possibly shouldn't have climbed out of today.

cardamon, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 21:55 (ten years ago) link

You might find it interesting to know that I had a conversation with someone in Israel who actually works for the government sort of doing international PR as it were, and she had similar reservations but from the other side -- she didn't have any problem with gay rights, gay culture, etc., but she felt like it was kind of frivolous and inappropriate to be focusing on promoting gay party life.

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 01:11 (ten years ago) link

i don't really know enough about the state of lgbtq politics in israel to comment specifically on israel's potential pinkwashing, and lol this is probably totally the wrong thread for this, but i feel like saying that pinkwashing per se isn't such a bad thing because at least it's promoting openness or tolerance or w/e is kind of problematic. for me, "pinkwashing" connotes gay-friendliness that is only superficial. say, for instance, you have a large corporation that, like many fortune 500 companies, has policies that prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity, that provides benefits to domestic partners, etc. maybe they advertise in the lgbt community or actively recruit in it. they present a gay-friendly image to the public; perhaps they even donate money to an organization like the HRC or GLAAD. but what if they have investments in or otherwise profit from private prisons and the prison-industrial complex? you could say that this is a case of pinkwashing where they use their good works in the gay community to cover up or distract from their bad (or at least controversial) works in a different area. i think it goes deeper than that, though: lgbtq people are disproportionately affected by and subject to the criminal justice system; they're more likely to experience police harassment, more likely to be imprisoned, and more likely to be abused and raped (by both authorities and other prisoners) while in prison. they're also more likely to have special medical needs that may not be met while they're imprisoned. so in this (hypothetical but not unlikely) case, pinkwashing is being used to hide policies that disproportionately negatively effect lgbtq people beneath a veneer of lgbtq-friendliness. imo that's not a net gain for lgbtq ppl
also what cardamon said

1staethyr, Wednesday, 19 June 2013 04:08 (ten years ago) link

it seems like a major moral failure to condemn positive developments in one area bc of lack of them in another, and an epic strategic failure for Schulman to keep reminding ppl that Israel is a democratic country that protects gay rights.

Mordy , Wednesday, 19 June 2013 04:26 (ten years ago) link

it seems like a major moral failure to condemn positive developments in one area bc of lack of them in another

This. Unless there's a very, very clear causal link between the one and the other - cases where some good thing is only happening at the expense of some other, not only bad but worse thing. But such cases are rare, and I certainly don't think this is one of them.

cardamon, Wednesday, 19 June 2013 20:06 (ten years ago) link

oh UN-paws: http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/crc/docs/co/CRC-C-ISR-CO-2-4.pdf

Harmful practices
41. The Committee expresses concern about reported short and long-term complications arising from some traditional male circumcision practices.

42. The Committee recommends that the State party undertake a study on the short and long-term complications of male circumcision.

Mordy , Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:57 (ten years ago) link

daily mail

Gukbe, Wednesday, 26 June 2013 02:49 (ten years ago) link

they're just reporting a scoop from here:
http://www.amazon.com/Disinformation-Undermining-Attacking-Promoting-Terrorism/dp/1936488604

Mordy , Wednesday, 26 June 2013 02:50 (ten years ago) link

it's not the scoop it's that the daily mail is reporting about propaganda against a minority.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 26 June 2013 02:55 (ten years ago) link

ahahahah "a scoop". that book looks _real_ trustworthy there!

stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Friday, 28 June 2013 03:22 (ten years ago) link

pacepa is an interesting dude

Mordy , Friday, 28 June 2013 03:42 (ten years ago) link

more importantly tho, the general information about how nkvd invented 'anti-zionism' as a substitute for anti-semitism is historical record afaik so this really just fill in blanks - it doesn't need to be particularly trustworthy to be worthy of note

Mordy , Friday, 28 June 2013 03:44 (ten years ago) link

don't need trustworthiness when someone is writing about the secret plot to ensure that all anti-israel sentiment is definitely anti-semitic

Gukbe, Friday, 28 June 2013 06:24 (ten years ago) link

but really lol at the daily mail, perhaps the most racist national publication in the UK

Gukbe, Friday, 28 June 2013 06:24 (ten years ago) link

i'm reviewing that nirenberg book (anti-judaism) for a local federation paper. it's really good - sections on ancient egypt, quranic islam and voltaire are all really strong.

i heard a funny joke at shabbat table this shabbat. two jews pass a church advertising $100 for conversions. one jew says to the other "hey, let's do it," and he goes in. a little bit later he comes out and his jewish friend is like, "nu? did they give you the money?" the new convert says, "you jews, it's all about money to you."

Mordy , Sunday, 7 July 2013 02:01 (ten years ago) link

that's p anti semitic mordy

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 July 2013 02:03 (ten years ago) link

when u think about it like, i mean just look at what it's saying

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 July 2013 02:03 (ten years ago) link


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