Is this anti-semitism?

i was just kind of baffled by the toe thing and wondered if that was addressed in the OV.

good luck norway.

Getting circumcized, at this moment:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CHBrCyolg1s/TaMxhOUh8VI/AAAAAAAAAbc/ntFZAGNNBsI/s1600/mgm-logo.jpg

why are they cutting off that kids toes

bc circumcising your child's penis is as bad as cutting off his toes

It's all a bit Brothers Grimm/ Struwwelpeter if you ask me

there are sincere anti-circumcision people who are not coming at it from conscious (or even internalised guardian-newspaper-style) anti-semitism. e.g. friend of mine just had a baby and i was surprised about how explicit the non-circumcision advice was in what seem like the pretty run-of-the-mill baby books i flicked through (command is probably a better word! the author of "the rough guide to having a baby" was repulsed by it, but there was no mention of religion anywhere). these were UK baby books (not german! ha! oh boy!)

obv though there's an intersection between anti-semitism and anti-MGM, and this cartoon is right there.

i was surprised about how explicit the non-circumcision advice was

I think this is just pushback from how widely it was recommended by doctors in the 20th c, the medical benefits of it are minimal, there's really no reason to do it beyond tribalism. (that being said I had my son circumcised recently)

i think some of the babycare books might be reacting to non-religious circumcision. seems like it was a pretty common procedure in this country at one point - me and my bro were both circumcised for "medical" reasons. babycare advice always seems strongly reactionary against the ill thought through ideas of the preceding generation.

can't say it bothers me one iota, in fact i think i prefer to be cut - tho i can't really remember what it's like not to be.

sorry, i've just written exackly what you said Shakey

i didn't realise it had ever been recommended in the uk.

babycare advice always seems strongly reactionary against the ill thought through ideas of the preceding generation.

ugh god yeah this is so true. has anyone done a historical survey of this kind of literature? cuz it seems like the thinking changes every 10 years

xp

yeah, when i was 7-ish i was diagnosed with having a "tight foreskin" or something and hey ho a day in the hospital and i got bought a bunch of comics as a treat :D

that's pretty late to be circumcised!

xxp

i guess this isn't really the thread Shakey but even between my kids being born i seem to remember getting different advice about which way kids should lie in their cot to reduce the risk of sudden infant death syndrome

xp yeah that's not what we're talking about. pretty sure circumcision of babies has *never* been common or recommended in the uk in the NHS era.

Don't know the stats but its much less common in the UK than the US I believe?

i don't think circumcision of babies was medically recommended but there was a definite trend for recommending it as a medical procedure in youngish boys, at least into the 1970s

it was definitely widely recommended in the US throughout the 20th c. that's been declining recently

During the 19th century, many medical practitioners believed that being circumcised was more hygienic than not being circumcised.

As a result, the routine medical circumcision of all boys, regardless of religious faith, became a widespread practice in England. However, routine male circumcision gradually became less common as many members of the medical community began to argue that it had no real medical benefit in the vast majority of cases.

from the NHS website, tho it's vague as to the dying out of the practice

yeah there's probably as circumcision thread if we want to get into this. i have absolutely no opinion on it fwiw.

my point was just that it is possible to be anti-routine-circumcision (and to present an argument that is anti-routine-circumcision) without being anti-semitic.

but yes, that cartoon is anti-semitic.

Data from a national survey conducted from 1999 to 2002 found that the overall prevalence of male circumcision in the United States was 79%. 91% of boys born in the 1970s, and 83% of boys born in the 1980s were circumcised. An earlier survey, conducted in 1992, found a circumcision prevalence of 77% in US-born men, born from 1932–1974, including 81% of non-Hispanic White men, 65% of Black men, and 54% of Hispanic men, vs. 42% of non U.S. born men who were circumcised.

iirc this was directly attributable to the (perhaps misguided) efforts of a small number of US researchers

i don't have any hands-on (nyuk nyuk) exp here but my understanding is that religious circumcision is far less uh complete than medical circumcisions (which are done with some kind of special clamp/cigar chopper device iirc)

so that cartoon ought to have a blooddrinking doctor, eh?

ah Lewis Sayre, founder of AMA

xp

wheres that anti-circumcision comic book that thing was great (and anti-semitic)

oh its in this very thread

http://imgs.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/djsaunders/2011/06/02/foreskin-man-no-2-front-cover.jpg

oh god yes, it was on a pool table

something something black ball side pocket

where's the translation from?

― caek, Thursday, 30 May 2013 15:51 (2 hours ago) Permalink

Translation from here: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2013/05/thoughts-about-that-antisemitic.html but I've seen numerous translations elsewhere (all below the original cartoon) that were similar.

― Mordy , Thursday, 30 May 2013 18:03 (33 minutes ago) Permalink

Perhaps in the original, the rabbi was just wishing that the foreskin "vanish from the pages of time" ;)

Of course it is not antisemitic to be anticircumcision, fwiw. In fact there is a movement of Jews who are anticircumcision. We are even considering it if we have a son, or more accurately, my wife is against it and I might be coming around.

Ultimately, I think the potential negative effects of the event itself are overstated, i.e. I'm skeptical that a single, relatively fleeting pain, even a severe one, has that much power to screw up a person permanently. But if there's no particular reason to do it other than an old tradition, I'm increasingly for avoiding it.

:(

This is really good:
http://chronicle.com/article/Anti-Judaism-as-a-Critical/136793/

― Mordy , Tuesday, May 28, 2013 9:45 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thanks for this, it was a good read

i would probably have a stronger opinion on circumcision if it had happened when i was older :(

xp I'm getting his book through an interlibrary loan. It got really good reviews when it came out.

That comic is not anti-semitic imho. It's gory and in poor taste I think, but the cartoonist seems to be against circumcision not because Jews do it, but because he/she deems it an inhumane practice.

To me the cartoonist clearly takes offense to deeds justified by religion (any religion) that would normally appall people, but are allowed because they belong to a religious tradition.

There's been a huge debate about this in Holland, too (following the debate in Germany, end of last year). It was extraordinary to see Jews and Muslims for once join forces to oppose a ban. The ban fell through btw.

That comic is not anti-semitic imho

so you're cool with the blatantly anti-semitic stereotype on the cover eh

here we go

can we just agree there might be something a little um thoughtless about portraying an orthodox Jew with a pitchfork?

That comic is not anti-semitic imho.

are you f'in serious?

sometimes a pitchfork is just a pitchfork?

can understand why European cartoonists overlook anti-semitic imagery tho, we don't have a great tradition of it over here

yeah the only way i can imagine someone finding that not anti-semitic is if said someone is entirely ignorant of history of anti-semitism and its themes and iconography

lol europe

Is this anti-smegmatism?

I didn't see a Jewish stereotype. It's so badly drawn I can't see a Rabbi in the figure on the left. I don't see a "big crooked nose" which, here, is the main stereotype used. Sorry, just didn't see it.

Ah the pitchfork... yes, that should've been a giveaway...

i'd agree that it's v shakily composed -- took me a while to suss out that it was toes being cut off -- but dude come on

I take full responsibility for my ignorance.

i really don't understand how this cartoonist draws noses

I think even if you fully oppose circumcision it's pretty offensive to suggest that people are doing it to their own children out of some kind of evil bloodlust and enjoyment of suffering, which is what I get from that comic. Coupling that with them being Jewish is already enough to make it antisemitic imo.