Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Like this episode a lot, but isn’t Clara’s secret basically Bad Wolf redux?

A lot of Moffat's run has involved fixing, or doing properly, RTD's tropes and excesses

Also can someone explain to me how River was there?

hologram, essentially

like a red dwarf type 'i am dead but i live on' type thing, except in/on/from that library planet

Ah, right, so she's somehow escaped the library computer, but won't reveal how she's done it yet (i.e the "spoiler" bit)?

A 'connection' to Clara from the seance apparently. Or something.

something something

wibbly wobbly floggy dead horsey

she's still in the library computer, as best we know. she's just skyping in.

That AV Club review was kind of dumb

Easily the best episode of this half of the season, even accounting for the "this is the Doctor's entire timeline but we're only showing things from the Doctor's past" hand wave

Moffat <3s AA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=20pd6JqdyVI

"this is the Doctor's entire timeline but we're only showing things from the Doctor's past" hand wave

This is excusable, as if Clara hadn't intervened and the Great Intellegence's plan had succeeded the Doctor would have died (probably?) and his timeline would've ended there.

Moffat <3s AA

he corrected me once (and i wasn't wrong)

Seeing some suggestions now that John Hurt might actually be a pre-Hartnoll Doctor. Would that make sense?

Hmm, that would be interesting.

verrrrry interesting

It would not perhaps work that well with the current Doctor's rage that being the Doctor is a PROMISE that Hurt BROKE - unless there were others before him?

Feels less likely to me, they've been dropping unresolved Time War references for 7 seasons, while they've made virtually no reference to his original life on Gallifrey beyond that one scene with him and the master as kids, so if they're going to go back to one of those as a big "IMPORTANT EPISODE FULL OF ANSWERS" it has to be the former, no?

"We call him The Other."

Wait maybe the 50th Special is going to be Lungbarrow.

missing regeneration was the smoke monster.

Wait maybe the 50th Special is going to be Lungbarrow.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK

"And now, settle in for a 12-hour-long special episode of Doctor Who"

^^^ LOL, even that wouldn't make the fanboys happy.

When John Hurt was first cast - before anyone had a hint he'd be playing some kind of riff on BAD DOCTOR - I thought they'd got him in to play John Dee, the alchemist. Good idea, but no dice. I think he will prove to be some kind of impostor. Too much numbered merchandising in DW for it to be any other way, really.

No need for an imposter - they've already written it so's not to disturb the numbering.

The whole question of "what if The Doctor regenerated into a completely different person" is semi-fascinating; what happens when his core personality changes so much that he isn't really The Doctor anymore? And, given that we're talking about a personality spectrum that includes several wildly dissimilar personalities (the juxtaposition between 2 and 6 in The Two Doctors being a great example of this), what type of person was this incarnation that he can't be considered "The Doctor"?

I am super excited for this like I haven't been in years.

hey maybe there's like 50 errant 'doctors' who aren't allowed to be called 'doctor' because the high council only hands down regenerations if oh wait they're all dead

hey maybe the seal of rassilon turns up at bad wolf bay and looks like this

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000PribmXu7Q.Y/s/880/880/Hookers-Sea-Lion-on-the-beach.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_933OtERckvA/R_AGlvPI9VI/AAAAAAAAAOE/6wWUAQLsNZ4/S220/bh06.jpg

gah

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_933OtERckvA/R_AGlvPI9VI/AAAAAAAAAOE/6wWUAQLsNZ4/S220/bh06.jpg

If I haven't watched any other Colin Baker stories, can I still jump into Trial of a Timelord?

yes

but don't, it's terrible

lol so conflicted!

(I mean, go in with the least high of expectations)

it's great

If you just want to see where the word Valeyard comes from, then be it on your own head, but do allow yourself permission to bail out - it does not actually pay off in the end, as the original writer died halfway through, and then the followup writer quit, and the replacement writers a) literally had to make up a new ending from the penultimate script with neither of the previous writers' notes, and b) are the worst writers in the entire history of Who

If you just want to sample a Colin, Vengeance On Varos is the least awful TV story. But alternatively he is the best audio Doctor, and has been in some of the best Who stories ever, in that form.

Also "his" run in the comic was pretty great, including two Grant Morrison stories and lots of John Ridgway art and the best companion ever

oh yeah, the fact that 'trial' ends terribly is fairly important. just enjoy how bizarre it all is and don't expect anything to pay off after ep 4.

The first story is genuinely good, the second has a decent core idea but that's about it, and the third... It could be a great Tom story, Agatha Christie on a space liner. Unfortunately, Mel.

The final section is a very NuWho idea, that all the previous stories have been a trap through space and time (in fact, Rusty used that exact phrase to describe the return of The Master, it was his season arc description) set by a Time Lord disguising his true identity. That the Doctor is conflicted and tormented by inner evil and some times doesn't know where it will take him.

Doesn't it reveal **spoiler****spoiler** the Valeyard is actually the Master in disguise at the very end?

Obviously it's a terrible season, but I remember being RIVETED by it (to be fair, I was 8).

Also, poor <redacted> happening to <redacted> is probably one of the creepiest moments of any episode I've seen (although again - 8).

Nope, the Master is not behind the Valeyard

The Valeyard is to Matt Smith as The Watcher is to Tom Baker (under the new numbering system).

Theory: Hurt Doctor is nothing to do with The Doctor at all otherwise all Dorium's " fall of the Eleventh" stuff that Moffatt put throughout Series 7 is about Tennant EmoDoc.

all of this made me go back and scan through the plot synopsis for Head Games

It made me go back and read Time And Time again. Paul Cornell should feel even more aggrieved than Lawrence Miles.

Man I would have loved loved LOVED to see Miles turn one of his stories* into a three-parter

*okay, Alien Bodies

Theory: Hurt Doctor is nothing to do with The Doctor at all

Maybe he's an alt-whatever-his-og-name-is who didn't choose that Time Lord name/calling (there was a thing between The Doctor and The Master in The Sound of Drums about name choosing).

Obviously it's a terrible season, but I remember being RIVETED by it (to be fair, I was 8).

Ha, I vividly remember E1 of this this being the exact point where I gave up on Doctor Who (I was 10), because the idea of a 14 week courtroom drama just seemed so BORING to me. I dropped out and never went back. (well ok, not never, I came back for the original broadcast of McGann). Have watched it since though and yeah, it's not all that bad. There are far worse Colin Baker stories, at least.

late to the party, finally watched this last night.

That was a great episode! I've spent most of the season settling in for eyerolling/boredom followed by mild to extreme annoyance and I really didn't have any of that. Yay! finally!

irritations, they are but a few
1) I know AA/Sic kinda dug into this earlier but this whole showdown with the Great Intelligence would have paid off a whole lot better if he had been more of a constant thread through this season instead of only being in 1 or 2 other episodes. Even if REG isn't going to physically BE in all the episodes, make us think about him? But that would require having a more solid story through the season which they didn't always seem to.

2) Aldo mentioned this, and he was otm. Moffat's wankery. Listen Moff, Souffle Girl is not a thing. It's never going to be a thing. That line about the souffle is not a souffle it's just the recipe was MEH when you said it the first time, I'm not going to get on board with it and buy a tshirt of it the third or fourth time you say it. Impossible Girl, same thing. Quit trying to memeify all of your lines, you great git. I mean, that's 90 % of why Clara annoys me so much. Everything she says is like they're trying to make it a catchphrase and it drives me bonkers.

3) Sic otm re everyone standing around the Doctor's time dna or whatever, when it's BLEEDING obvious that Clara needs to get in it. Either do it right away because the audience knows that's what she's supposed to do, or add a wrinkle that the audience hasn't thought of for why she's not getting in there but don't just all stand around staring like a bunch of tits.

The rest of it? Yay. Soooo much yay. I loved how gothy and dark it was and how it finally did explain Clara pretty well (though honestly it annoys me that she's now part of their whole timeline when she's not interesting enough to deserve such a thing lol)

John muthafucking Hurt!! Weeeeee. I am excited for this story and I hope it pays off.

I like how they were all "oh noes, Clara will die and be replaced by a bunch of copies scattered through the Doctor's life" when it seems like each copy had its own relatively rich and full life (until the Doctor came along).

Something my wife pointed out was that the first line Oswin said in Asylum of the Daleks was "I don't know where I am" which I didn't remember and is actually a great piece of seasonwide narrative threading