Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

which would make smith #12, and fanboys' heads everywhere explode

They sorted this out in Let's Kill Hitler, didn't they? He has all River's spare regenerations as well.

I think it's the "mis"numbering that's meant to be explodey. (It would annoy me personally because of all the specific "11" mentions through the series, but it's such a thrilling and fun change-up if its true)

Also even before LKH Smith said he could regenerate 507 times or sthng in the RTD ep of Sarah Jane that also had Jo Grant in it

I vaguely recall that they've revised it so he has limitless regenerations.

Also: regeneration wasn't retconned in until 1974, the 12-regen limit was retconned in in 1976, and then retconned into not actually being a definite limit in 1981; so it has always been a particularly pointless piece of continuity to cling to as if it were immutable and necessary to address in-story.
Since then the entire world and society that imposed the limit has been eradicated in a Time War, so it may never have even existed in the current universe.

It would annoy me personally because of all the specific "11" mentions through the series, but it's such a thrilling and fun change-up if its true

I think the get out here is that this Doctor is still the 11th Doctor despite being the 12th regeneration of (whatever his name is) because Hurt doesn't count as a Doctor.

Actually it's amazing that Moffat didn't just call last night's episode "The 12 Doctors" given that a) that's how many were in it and b) it would've avoided him having to do the annoying bait and switch with the Doctor's name and c) all the "Smith leaves!" speculation would've been great fun.

Actually, even though the regeneration limit has been retconned away, Clara did say in that final scene that she'd specifically "all of you, eleven faces"...and then John Hurt too. And that's through the entirety of his timeline up until his proper final death, given that that's where she went in. So that means Smith really does need to be the last Doctor ever, right? If there were more in the future she'd have seen them too.

from that AV review

So, was that the Fall of the Eleventh? Because the Doctor sure seemed to be able to fail to answer, which goes against Dorium’s prophecy back in “The Wedding Of River Song.” Perhaps all that refers to the real battle of Trenzalore, the one in which the Doctor dies. Or maybe it’s all just hopelessly muddled at this point.

I can accept that a lot of stuff gets handwaved in Who (now he can see River cos love), but this is a weird one, because it's Moffat's own foreshadowing that's being blown off

fanwank: presumably any prophet who sees that scene won't be able to tell that he didn't answer?

I think the get out here is that this Doctor is still the 11th Doctor despite being the 12th regeneration of (whatever his name is) because Hurt doesn't count as a Doctor.

but they did a great big title right next to his face that says INTRODUCING JOHN HURT AS oh look never mind

i see your point, i just don't trust moffat any more

He couldn't speak falsely, or the doors wouldn't open. He couldn't fail to answer, or his friends would be killed. It's about a dilemma, not a physical compulsion.

Also all the stars going out because he Doctor saved EVERYTHING is back to Doctor-Jesus Power Escalation imo

I thought it was obvious that the stars all went out because the Daleks/Davros destroyed the universe, as in the big plot to series 4: if the GI prevented the Doctor from stopping them, then they succeeded

i see your point, i just don't trust moffat any more

Don't follow this (apart from the fact you didn't trust him before!) - you think he's not going to follow through with a story about Hurt earning or redeeming or flashing back to losing the name?

moffat breaks promises

what has he promised here?

moffat breaks promises

― the Quim of Bendigo (Autumn Almanac), Sunday, May 19, 2013 7:56 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i can tell. you've been hurt before.

what has he promised here?

that john hurt is the doctor (you might have briefly seen a fleeting caption that said 'INTRODUCING JOHN HURT AS THE DOCTOR' and took up half the screen)

ah yes, but doctor who?

tell me i couldn't write for this show

that john hurt is the doctor

so you're outraged in advance JUST IN CASE he's not going to follow through with a story about Hurt earning or redeeming or flashing back to losing the name?

no straw man, i merely don't trust moffat

I liked the finale mainly because I thought it had a lot of cool ideas -- something Moffat is good at, but also had satisfying resolution, something Moffat is usually pretty bad at.

The pre-credits part was incredible, and while there were a few things that didn't make much sense I liked the overall additions and callbacks to the Whoniverse canon... esp. referring to The Valeyard, what happens to a TARDIS as it dies, and the new (time war-era?) Doctor. I thought it was a great episode.

Lady Vastra's dream parlor with it's own upgradable 'desktop' was really cool too. I like how Nu-Who has embraced metaphysical concepts and given them its own unique sci-fi spin to them, such as "souls" and psychic abilities, etc.

But I also don't trust Moffat to deliver the goods, he's not batting zero but rarely does he knock the ball out of the parl, IMO. Not that any plausible future showrunners are much better. Gatiss episodes have been some of my least favorite and Chibnall seems little more than competent. At least Moffat has some moxie and vision even if his follow-through is somewhat lacking.

Maybe if Gaiman was willing to take over, that would be really awesome. Then we might see some *really* dark episodes...

Gaiman is not willing, and also has no experience as a TV showrunner.

Chibnall seems little more than competent

maybe on the strength of Broadchurch (haven't seen it), but on Who and Torchwood he's far below competent.

Also, I am really just hoping that if McGann is in the big 50th year special he gets a throwaway line where he explains that being half human was nothing more than a CLEVER LIE!!!

damn sic you're awesome. You should do a Dr. Who related podcast. I'd listen....

;_; not sure if being zung

bahahaha

i wonder are there really a significant number of nu-who fans that would be turned off by indulging the history? maybe i'm in a tiny minority but having watched very very very little pre-eleven doctor who i've never minded when it touched on a history i don't understand or am unfamiliar, quite the opposite in fact - i have the internet, i was aware that doctor who had this history, and while i'm sure that real doctor who fans got more out of the near cameos and appearances and more here it was still thrilling to me. i would imagine that signing on as a nu-whovian means acknowledging you might spend episodes out of yr depth, it would seem to be part of the appeal (it certainly was for me).

So Jenny dies twice in this episode -- Rory never quite managed that little feat, did he?

haha have to admit i actually bought her first death and was kinda pissed off

Like this episode a lot, but isn’t Clara’s secret basically Bad Wolf redux?

A lot of Moffat's run has involved fixing, or doing properly, RTD's tropes and excesses

Also can someone explain to me how River was there?

hologram, essentially

like a red dwarf type 'i am dead but i live on' type thing, except in/on/from that library planet

Ah, right, so she's somehow escaped the library computer, but won't reveal how she's done it yet (i.e the "spoiler" bit)?

A 'connection' to Clara from the seance apparently. Or something.

something something

wibbly wobbly floggy dead horsey

she's still in the library computer, as best we know. she's just skyping in.

That AV Club review was kind of dumb

Easily the best episode of this half of the season, even accounting for the "this is the Doctor's entire timeline but we're only showing things from the Doctor's past" hand wave

Moffat <3s AA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=20pd6JqdyVI

"this is the Doctor's entire timeline but we're only showing things from the Doctor's past" hand wave

This is excusable, as if Clara hadn't intervened and the Great Intellegence's plan had succeeded the Doctor would have died (probably?) and his timeline would've ended there.

Moffat <3s AA

he corrected me once (and i wasn't wrong)

Seeing some suggestions now that John Hurt might actually be a pre-Hartnoll Doctor. Would that make sense?

Hmm, that would be interesting.

verrrrry interesting

It would not perhaps work that well with the current Doctor's rage that being the Doctor is a PROMISE that Hurt BROKE - unless there were others before him?

Feels less likely to me, they've been dropping unresolved Time War references for 7 seasons, while they've made virtually no reference to his original life on Gallifrey beyond that one scene with him and the master as kids, so if they're going to go back to one of those as a big "IMPORTANT EPISODE FULL OF ANSWERS" it has to be the former, no?

"We call him The Other."