Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

But the problem with the notion of switching off and going along with the ride is that's exactly what Moffatt (and Rusty before him) DON'T want you to do, otherwise they wouldn't spend all their time building story arcs and encouraging close reading in order to 'understand'. They wouldn't put in 'for the fans' glimpses of dialogue, characters or images. They wouldn't have 'mysteries' that need resolved over the period. It would just be monster of the week (which I enjoyed the Pond half-series which was in exactly that way).

it's sort of bizarre that people complained when there were mega-arcs and then they complained about this year's one-off stories (fwiw it wasn't the twilighty-show-about-that-zone format that cheezed me off, it was the crap episodes)

I don't think either Moffatt or Rusty think they're making a children's sci-fi show, in fact if Rusty thought he was then he wouldn't have needed SJA. Ad how many kids' shows that you've ever seen have jokes about paving slab blow jobs? Or that much snogging (cf the 'proper snog everyone's been waiting for' as the Doctor/River kiss has been described by almost everyone) and emo eye watery?

i did like the doctor/river snog despite myself (and upon the 'disgracefully' line i lolled and lolled and lolled)

Well there are degrees of switching off. I still follow it closely enough that I pick up on most everything you're meant to pick up on, but what I mean is that I don't really ever try to sit and puzzle it out. Anytime I come across a particular concept that seems to quite blatantly not work, that's the moment when I switch off and go "Ah fuck it, this is not worth my time and energy to work out or get annoyed about" - so Clara has been saving The Doctor's life throughout his whole life? Fine. The Doctor can see River Song after all? Fine. And so on. The bits that threaten to catch I just let glide right past me.

And tbh I'm not bothered whether Moffat or RTD think they're making a children's tv show, those are the terms that I think of it in usually, and as such I'm able to accept gaping plot-holes and ideas that don't seem to really hold up too well under close examination as par for the course.

children v young adult

cbbc v bbc1

bbc1 has been catering to a childmind audience lately, what with doctor who and the wright way and the one show

Ten is in there as well, twice

here's Eight: http://media.tumblr.com/e4d19d065fd80e47939abdfde4e69f5f/tumblr_inline_mn0e4xfhjA1qz4rgp.gif

Without rewatching The Doctor's Wife, I'm pretty sure it contradicts it in First Doctor terms (unless the get-out is that the TARDIS told Clara to say that).

??

Does this mean the Doctor beat the GI twice in London and twice in Tibet?

uh, three times in London, once in Tibet? per TV episodes anyway. what are you thinking of?

But if The Doctor remembers The Snowmen and Asylum of the Daleks, then he'd also remember the woman who told him which TARDIS to steal - after all, it's the even which determined his life,

The Snowmen was probably a few months ago in his timeline, and featured a woman who drew him out of a huge depression, that he spent hours with over several days, invited into the TARDIS and held in his arms as she died.

The TARDIS repair shop chick he met for literally three seconds, 900 [or several thousand] years ago, when he was super-stressed out and making an enormous life change and afraid of getting caught if he didn't finish fleeing that minute.

and ALL of Nu Who is full of how he remembers everything he's ever done, everywhere he's ever been, everything he's ever read.

No it isn't. There are heaps and heaps of scenes of him not connecting things to past events or not remembering things properly.

And the Dragonfire 'save' fals because she's on the other side of the chasm, unless he Doctor sees her and somehow that save him giving another opportunity for him to remember her.

That's not necessarily a save, as not all the encounters are - she doesn't save him every time she sees him. It was a fucking fantastic nerd joke though - finally an explanation for that scene: the Great Intelligence made him do it!

FWIW I thought this was fantastic and I haven't really enjoyed or been engaged by anything from this year, other than the episode in the corridors of the Tardis.

Still hate "spoilers" though.

I don't think either Moffatt or Rusty think they're making a children's sci-fi show, in fact if Rusty thought he was then he wouldn't have needed SJA

Moffatt definitely does, or at least he's definitely pitching to young kids as one of several layers. Rusty's felt like a more 00's Heat magazine affair really, or at least his way of pitching to children was more grounded a relate-able real world compared with Moffatt's more fantastical vibe.

Yeah, I found that glimpse of eight when I did a pause button rewatch, just after I posted. But I still couldn't find ten. Got gifs for those?

I didn't see Ecclestone, Tennant or McGann anywhere, surprised the former two weren't foregrounded more.

i saw eccleston

Yeah he runs past in that final scene.

Ten Ants also runs past then, and there's a shot of Clara looking at the back of his head on the Library planet - it's pretty dark though

the one "Eccleston" shot seemed to have longer hair than we knew him with, would love it if that was actually "current" McGann

http://media.sfx.co.uk/files/2012/11/mcgann_305.jpg

plus if Hurt is actually a previously-unknown Ninth non-Doctor, then there were two Ninths in this despite Eccleston's disinterest in returning

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2012/8/6/1344253936635/Richard-E-Grant-008.jpg

otm

grant is still the shalka doc to me

Still kind of hoping we'll see the McGann/Hurt regeneration in the special, and also hoping the Eccleston stuff we've heard so far is misdirection so we can get a Hurt/Eccleston regeneration in there too. Both would totally make sense and be justified.

lol yes, wow

which would make smith #12, and fanboys' heads everywhere explode

here's that Ten (link bcz hueg

To respond to sic, Wo seems to delight these days in picking apart everything I say line by line...

In the Doctor's Wife, the TARDIS is explicitly clear that she made the Doctor choose her instead of any of the other TARDISes. Now we find out, it's not, it was Clara. Unless it was acting through her, which goes against all the 'the TARDIS doesn't like me' stuff this season.

I mean that to an ego-monster like the Great Intelligence, the Web of Fear and The Abominable Snowmen would have to be some of the "greatest victories" you want to turn into defeats because they're against you. Ergo Troughton beats both of them twice. No don't tell me, Bill & Ted clause, the last person in was the way it always happened. Except when it's not, wibbly wobbly timely wimey oh fuckey offey poorey writingey bullshitty witty.

So somebody in the repair shop where you're stealing something that will go on to define your entire life sees you doing it, and instead of reporting it says "nah you don't want that one mate, it's knackered, take this one we've just finished repairing it" and 1) you believe her ( and its not just a con to trap a thief) and 2) you don't remember? Although if you're such an honourable stand-up guy I suppose you would be desperate to run away from the planet since they're all shallow traitorous thieves.

And there are even more scenes where he looks slightly wistfully and says "ah yes, the fifteenth moon of the planet Voltorgybopmop, I remember having dinner there one with the Quim of Bendigo. lovely chap, he went on to marry Histronella con Trimperhofery, she was a descendant of Fishsticks Magee. I lost to him at cards once, though how he knew that four was a three Ill never know..." (In fact, the premise of this whole plot arc is really about how good his memory actually is and he's been suppressing part of it at great pain to himself - the John Hurt Dark Doctor, presumably between McGann and Ecclestone during the Time War.)

I can go for that for Dragonfire, not sure a kid would make the leap though. I'm sure they'd parse it like I did, that her banging the window is somehow supposed to save him. Although that raises another question - what are the consequences of the parts where she failed to undo what the GI changed in the time stream if we're now accepting she didn't undo it all? (Let me guess, does it involve Bill & Ted?)

Something I didn't spot - when they've used the grave as a secret entrance and are in the lower levels of the TARDIS climbing the industrial staircase and Clara feels ill and remembers the conversation from Journey to the centre... This abruptly cuts to outside the TARDIS Tomb and the Doctor turns up apologising for being late. Clara is already there. What happened inbetween?

i was in bendigo a couple of weeks ago, didn't notice an obvious quim

It's less that the Doctor didn't remember and more that he was suppressing the information from Clara (and by extension the audience). I'm struggling to remember if Clara was familiar to the Doctor when she first appeared.

Yeah I don't think it's the case that The Doctor couldn't remember it himself, he's obviously just utterly ashamed and repulsed by the memory that he buries it as deep as possible "He's my secret" etc.

If they are swerving us with the eccleston thing and we're going to get 5 doctors and the time war in this special them I'll be a happy chappy.

http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-name-of-the-doctor,97426/

when the Great Intelligence talks about peace at last, I’m not sure what the “at last” refers to. His role in the episode depends on his history with the Doctor, but the audience isn’t actually aware of any such history.

Lol

??? The last-five-months audience has seen a history between them lasting first over a century, and now apparently many many millennia. The old series had two stories set abt 50 years apart.

In the Doctor's Wife, the TARDIS is explicitly clear that she made the Doctor choose her instead of any of the other TARDISes. Now we find out, it's not, it was Clara. Unless it was acting through her, which goes against all the 'the TARDIS doesn't like me' stuff this season.

The latter point would be moot bcz the TARDIS has grown to like her over the season. HOWEVER, it's moot bcz Clara is not going through the Doctor's life giving him guidance in all situations; she's only fixing things the Grebt Intelligence fucked up seconds before*. So REG nudged him to go for TARDIS #x, and she comes back and suggests TARDIS #y, who had already opened her door. (Then the Dr goes in, touches the controls, and they both "choose" each other.)


*where necessary: obv she didn't need to save him in Dragonfire, as Glitz showed up and went "MISTAH DOCTOR! WHAT YOU DOING? Get dahn from there" 2 seconds later

??? The last-five-months audience has seen a history between them lasting first over a century, and now apparently many many millennia. The old series had two stories set abt 50 years apart.

not nearly enough emotional (or even screen) investment for the viewer

btw i like how the tardis has a permanent window crack now

Who has done a reveal of a never-actually-before-seen foe of yore many many times, this is one that actually has been seen, multiple times, in the viewers' memory; doesn't seem a problem to me.

(But then I don't think I've ever been emotionally invested in whether a baddie beats the Doctor, what are these things you hu-mans call feelings)

If it's a children's sci-fi programme then I would suggest he intention is definitely for the viewer to have a massive emotional investment in whether the baddie beats the Doctor.

So children will remember him/it fine from the last five months, which they wouldn't if it was longer ago. Problem solved!

(when I was a kid I knew about regeneration though, and was always far more interested in a world or society or issue getting drawn each story than some cackling dick holding a knife above the Doctor anyway. plus liked ones where he thought or talked his way into resolving a situation he'd wandered into, rather than some cackling dick taking personal revenge on the Dr...)

which would make smith #12, and fanboys' heads everywhere explode

They sorted this out in Let's Kill Hitler, didn't they? He has all River's spare regenerations as well.

I think it's the "mis"numbering that's meant to be explodey. (It would annoy me personally because of all the specific "11" mentions through the series, but it's such a thrilling and fun change-up if its true)

Also even before LKH Smith said he could regenerate 507 times or sthng in the RTD ep of Sarah Jane that also had Jo Grant in it

I vaguely recall that they've revised it so he has limitless regenerations.

Also: regeneration wasn't retconned in until 1974, the 12-regen limit was retconned in in 1976, and then retconned into not actually being a definite limit in 1981; so it has always been a particularly pointless piece of continuity to cling to as if it were immutable and necessary to address in-story.
Since then the entire world and society that imposed the limit has been eradicated in a Time War, so it may never have even existed in the current universe.

It would annoy me personally because of all the specific "11" mentions through the series, but it's such a thrilling and fun change-up if its true

I think the get out here is that this Doctor is still the 11th Doctor despite being the 12th regeneration of (whatever his name is) because Hurt doesn't count as a Doctor.

Actually it's amazing that Moffat didn't just call last night's episode "The 12 Doctors" given that a) that's how many were in it and b) it would've avoided him having to do the annoying bait and switch with the Doctor's name and c) all the "Smith leaves!" speculation would've been great fun.

Actually, even though the regeneration limit has been retconned away, Clara did say in that final scene that she'd specifically "all of you, eleven faces"...and then John Hurt too. And that's through the entirety of his timeline up until his proper final death, given that that's where she went in. So that means Smith really does need to be the last Doctor ever, right? If there were more in the future she'd have seen them too.

from that AV review

So, was that the Fall of the Eleventh? Because the Doctor sure seemed to be able to fail to answer, which goes against Dorium’s prophecy back in “The Wedding Of River Song.” Perhaps all that refers to the real battle of Trenzalore, the one in which the Doctor dies. Or maybe it’s all just hopelessly muddled at this point.

I can accept that a lot of stuff gets handwaved in Who (now he can see River cos love), but this is a weird one, because it's Moffat's own foreshadowing that's being blown off

fanwank: presumably any prophet who sees that scene won't be able to tell that he didn't answer?

I think the get out here is that this Doctor is still the 11th Doctor despite being the 12th regeneration of (whatever his name is) because Hurt doesn't count as a Doctor.

but they did a great big title right next to his face that says INTRODUCING JOHN HURT AS oh look never mind

i see your point, i just don't trust moffat any more

He couldn't speak falsely, or the doors wouldn't open. He couldn't fail to answer, or his friends would be killed. It's about a dilemma, not a physical compulsion.

Also all the stars going out because he Doctor saved EVERYTHING is back to Doctor-Jesus Power Escalation imo

I thought it was obvious that the stars all went out because the Daleks/Davros destroyed the universe, as in the big plot to series 4: if the GI prevented the Doctor from stopping them, then they succeeded

i see your point, i just don't trust moffat any more

Don't follow this (apart from the fact you didn't trust him before!) - you think he's not going to follow through with a story about Hurt earning or redeeming or flashing back to losing the name?

moffat breaks promises