the kniφe - shaking the habitual

funny thing is with out-and-out dance acts no one complains either - i saw major lazer at the same venue a few days before and apart from dropping a few snippets of well-known anthems into the mix none of the music was being "created" "live" - instead there were dancers, lights, glitter guns, diplo and co embracing superstar dj poses etc - and the crowd were SO into it

sometimes people just need to hear harshness nick. i'm less interested in persuading them to change their minds as in telling them about themselves

I can mainly remember feeling disdain for dance acts who didn't change the records from the recorded ones, when I liked dance music which had a live offering.

"Music fans who don't get the same transgressive art interpretations of live music as I do are idiots" isn't a very helpful approach, though, is it?

They're idiots if they go and see THE KNIFE and then complain about it.

Well, quite.

I definitely prefer the new Major Lazer album to the new Knife album but maybe I'm just superficial that way.

Otherwise it comes down to what Chris Barber used to say; regardless of what music you're into, most people are basically "Max Bygraves fans," i.e. happy to stick with what they already know.

I mean if I went to see the London Symphony Orchestra or I dunno Laura Marling or something and nothing was being played live onstage and it was being obsfuscated with a load of dancers I'd be entitled to be annoyed but really at this point you should be prepared for a Knife gig to be pretty obtuse.

maybe some of them just thought it was shit.

Entirely possible.

it's mapping rock band values onto electronic music

It's the values of ALL non-electronic music, pretty much. I sometimes wonder if certain acts could be more creative with the way they recreate the sound but I doubt most of them are just whacking on a backing tape of the album. Actually it's modern laptop-based indie acts who tend to be the worst for this.

Laura Marling being obfuscated by a load of dancers would improve her music immeasurably.

I definitely prefer the new Major Lazer album to the new Knife album but maybe I'm just superficial that way.

it has its moments for sure but dude from vampire weekend doing jamaican patois is just ;_; ;_; ;_; ;_;

I think also, at this stage, anyone attending a Knife show should have some sort of idea of what they are (or aren't) letting themselves in for. The fact so many people are getting upset about this underlines precisely the Knife's conceptual approach to Shaking The Habitual - redefining definitions, challenging expectations; often to the point that it intimidates those with a more conservative view of how things 'should' be. The whole point of the Knife's steez seems to be: 'how can the world be changed for the better if so many of us feel threatened by anything outside of these set structures and confines. It's not so much criticising them in a 'wake up sheeple' way, so much as leading by example - you CAN have a 20min drone piece on your album, you CAN change the way a live show is presented, and by extension you CAN make a difference to gender perception and political mores if only you accept ideas from outside of these confines.

Xxposts

Doglatin you're talking about all this stuff like it's a get-out-of-jail free card, "we are redefining definitions and challenging expectations and intimidating those with a conservative view of how things should be" doesn't magically insulate you from people going, "actually I don't have a conservative view, I just don't think what you're doing is successful or worthwhile".

think the knife were big enough that loads of people who don't give a shit about anything except the next album prob bought their records. you can't expect people to buy into everything a band does but it is pretty dumb and ignorant, i agree, to rail against them for wanting to do whatever they want to do on stage.

live shows aren't really that related to recorded music - i'm often alienated by people's wild enthusiasm for festivals etc and most people i know who love music don't share this.

it's fair to criticise it obv - eg with such an emphasis on choreography, why was the dancing so community-project amateur rather than tightly rehearsed - but you have to criticise it on its own terms rather than stubbornly insisting a live show must be a pro forma exercise rigidly adhered to

i'm often alienated by people's wild enthusiasm for festivals etc

same

I mean by all means swallow the bullshit but it's pretty insulting to assume that everyone who doesn't rate the record/performance just doesn't appreciate/understand what they're doing.

(I'm really looking forward to the gig tonight but it's pretty obvious by now that the Knife are fuelled by colossal amounts of bullshit and self-importance).

My view on StH is not that it's particularly challenging or confrontational but that a firm producer would have cut it back to a really powerful 35-minute album. Whereas the record as it stands has plenty of arresting ideas, most of which are duly done to death by over-repetition.

things do fall out of people's frame of understanding xposts to lex. i mean it seems easy to say what dumb rubes all these people are but presumably there are times when everyone mistakes something being entirely out of their wheelhouse for it being irrevocably shit.

self included. you sort of know when you're doing it sometimes and push on regardless.

It’s a bit like what I reluctantly had to conclude after listening to Bish Bosch – yes, Scott, we KNOW you can do this, but you’ve literally done it to death, and is it too much or too bourgeois or decadent to want a record of 3-4 minute songs constructed on a recognisable pattern?

Nope, and neither walker nor anybody else has suggested that it is! Plenty of people offering that, no reason to insist that walker/the knife do.

Likewise, there are dozens of perfectly good Silent Shoutalikes out there you could go and see instead. Scott Walker and the Knife aren't obliged in any way to offer what Marcello is asking.

- and neither are their fans entitled to ask for it either. FWIW STH and Bish Bosch are my favourite albums of the last 6 months or so, so I'm going to disagree on this.

I mean "3-4 minute songs constructed on a recognisable pattern" has kinda been done too, why is Scott walker not allowed to make 3 whole Scott walkery albums?

Yeah, I see it in the round. Thank god someone wants to make challenging, somewhat self-important art. My need for catchy tunes is satisfied elsewhere. The difference between Knife and Scott is that they haven't done this kind of thing before and he has.

Doglatin you're talking about all this stuff like it's a get-out-of-jail free card, "we are redefining definitions and challenging expectations and intimidating those with a conservative view of how things should be" doesn't magically insulate you from people going, "actually I don't have a conservative view, I just don't think what you're doing is successful or worthwhile".

― Matt DC, Thursday, 9 May 2013 11:33 (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

If you don't like it, fine - I'm not saying you have to. If you prefer the Knife because they write catchy synth-pop that's cool. I completely understand why, to take an extent example, so many Scott Walker fans left him after hearing Tilt. But given STH's remit, I think these live shows do a lot to back-up their philosophies and statements. It's about challenging conceptions and hegemonies - and how can an artist do that so that it reflects the wider socio-political landscape without digging out an acoustic guitar and singing 'George Bush Sucks A Big One'?

The problem I have with StH and the surrounding interviews is there's a lot of tell don't show - witness our in-depth knowledge of gender theory! - whereas the show is the opposite. The points they're making are palpable in the performance so they don't need to be stated.

Except to all the people who didn't get it / like it.

http://www.splicetoday.com/music/three-cluttered-vacancies

Track review

The difference between Knife and Scott is that they haven't done this kind of thing before and he has.

Y'all forgot about the Darwin opera that fast?

Boom.

Yeah this "change of direction" kind of isn't

But, how much was TIAY picked up on by general Knife fans? I get the idea it wasn't all that much.

STH is much more accessible than TIAY imo

and it does have hooks

The problem I have with StH and the surrounding interviews is there's a lot of tell don't show - witness our in-depth knowledge of gender theory! - whereas the show is the opposite. The points they're making are palpable in the performance so they don't need to be stated.

― Deafening silence (DL), Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:07 (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't really see the problem with this. Part of the reason interviews exist are that they give the artist the chance to explain themselves. The Knife's socio-politics are made most explicit in the interviews and in the fold-out comic book that comes with the album. If you hadn't read the comic or any interviews, you'd be forgiven for missing the point because everything else is down to suggestion and demonstration (save a few lyrical snippets here and there). I'm trying to think of other music that takes this Situationist approach to this extent.

and it does have hooks

― flamenco drop (lex pretend), Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:30 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And it's really not very repetitive at all, as was suggested upthread.

The Knife's socio-politics are made most explicit in the interviews and in the fold-out comic book that comes with the album. If you hadn't read the comic or any interviews, you'd be forgiven for missing the point because everything else is down to suggestion and demonstration (save a few lyrical snippets here and there)

This probably represents a lyrical failure on their part fwiw.

If you don't like it, fine - I'm not saying you have to. If you prefer the Knife because they write catchy synth-pop that's cool. I completely understand why, to take an extent example, so many Scott Walker fans left him after hearing Tilt. But given STH's remit, I think these live shows do a lot to back-up their philosophies and statements. It's about challenging conceptions and hegemonies - and how can an artist do that so that it reflects the wider socio-political landscape without digging out an acoustic guitar and singing 'George Bush Sucks A Big One'?

You aren't actually addressing my point here really.

The point I am making is that there are plenty of criticisms of this album that don't come from the direction of "wah where are the synthpop tunes?" It's perfectly reasonable to argue that the album doesn't succeed at what it is setting out to do, and just saying "it's challenging conceptions" or "you can get catchy synth tunes elsewhere" is handwaving that away somewhat.

xxpost I'm not sure, especially in this case, that there is such a thing as 'lyrical failure'. I'm not sure if that can be defined. Lyrics don't have to be explicit to be effective. I think the Knife's lyrics are extremely effective in their economy.

I just like the record 'cus it gives me the opportunity to sing "A HANDFUL OF ELF PEE!" in a really high falsetto/bad Swedish accent... *shrugs*

The point I am making is that there are plenty of criticisms of this album that don't come from the direction of "wah where are the synthpop tunes?" It's perfectly reasonable to argue that the album doesn't succeed at what it is setting out to do, and just saying "it's challenging conceptions" or "you can get catchy synth tunes elsewhere" is handwaving that away somewhat.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:43 (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's all going to be down to a matter of opinion. On a personal level I believe it does achieve its goal. In spades, in fact. I don't think I've heard a record that has made me think quite so much about the kinds of concepts being brought to the table here and as a result I think it's life-changing. I don't use that term lightly either.

no one piece of art can move everyone it touches - that doesn't make it a failure.

The Knife are probably pretty pleased that some people loved the show and others didn't.

^^^^ this is OTM. Polarisation is most likely a part of it. It's a kind of 'get in or get out' approach - it's up to you whether you accept it or not, but either way each reaction is valid.

But going back to Matt DC, I see what you mean about the 'get out of jail free' card. The Emperor's New Clothes argument can be made and I'll give you that. But on a fundamental level, I've rarely felt so gripped by a record and the core messages being expressed through it. It's all down to how one approaches it and one's own point of reference of course. My ongoing and more recent obsessions have included Swans, Scott Walker, Talking Heads and a bunch of others, where historical/political/social references are made in oblique, often confrontational and polarising ways, so to me STH slots into this perfectly. If I were approaching them from another direction I'd probably think it was a load of old noodlewank.

I'm interested in hearing how people would compare this album with PJ Harvey's 'Let England Shake'... the other big political record of this decade. Does it succeed more in making its point? Are the lyrics more effective?

xp "Y'all forgot about the Darwin opera that fast?"

Ha, I'll confess I did. Wiped from my mind.