the kniφe - shaking the habitual

to an extent whether they play The Hits or not is a bit of a red herring as it's only a small part of why the knife's show was divisive - it was the nature of the presentation more than the material they chose. but there's still this sense of entitlement and unwillingness to be surprised in people's complaints.

Because that's analogous to the euphoria of experiencing it at great volume in a crowd of like-minded people.

obviously it's not, but this is not what your ticket is buying.

I don't see how it's an entitlement to expect that if I attend a show, the artists will perform their hits or at the very least some songs that their fanbase are familiar with in a form that is recognizable to those fans. Theoretically, the reason I'm there is because you've sold me on the quality of those songs as they appear on your album or whatever and I want to see them in a live setting and the artist knows that's why I'm there. That's how they've drawn me in. This expectation can vary depending on the artists work and the feasibility of performing those songs live in a way that's engaging of course, but there's at least some expectation of what you'll play and how it will be played. Obviously payment for admission doesn't allow attendees to dictate the entire setlist, but c'mon, no one is buying a ticket to the Femme Fatale Tour to watch Britney perform to a setlist composed of ragtime interpretations of Baby One More Time album deepcuts and some would be rightly pissed if that's what they got.

no one is buying a ticket to the Femme Fatale Tour to watch Britney perform to a setlist composed of ragtime interpretations of Baby One More Time album deepcuts

yeah but this would be so awesome

why do you get so few of these complaints w/r/t other art forms? the other week i went to an avant-garde theatrical adaptation of the trial that involved walking by myself through east london, unexpected one-to-one encounters with actors etc - i had no idea what i was letting myself in for, certainly not what i got. (i bought the ticket - actually bought, unlike my knife ticket - on a friend's recommendation, not prior knowledge of the company.) it wasn't a traditional theatre experience by any means, it could well have fallen flat, would i have been within my rights to complain? i don't think so, as i said buying that ticket to an artistic experience was a risk that i would be left cold.

People don't think of pop as art, Lex.

Not saying that's right or wrong.

I'm sympathetic to the "I got a babysitter for THIS?" response to an unpredictable show. Sometimes you're forewarned: I don't go to see Wire because I mainly want to hear songs from the first three albums and I know that's not their deal these days. This was more of a shock but there was enormous pleasure in being made to question your assumptions and let go of them in order to enjoy what was, in its own right, an utterly joyous show. If this weren't billed as a Knife show and was something you stumbled upon late one night in one of Glastonbury's weirder tents then it would be one of the best things you'd see all year. I can understand being annoyed by what it wasn't - The Knife visibly performing their songs — but what it was was exceptional.

Strikes me that the Knife audience should have known exactly what they would be getting, if they had even nodding acquaintance with Shaking The Habitual, i.e. played it once, filed it away and dug out Deep Cuts again.

People don't think of pop as art, Lex.

― they all are afflicted with a sickness of existence (Scik Mouthy), Thursday, May 9, 2013 9:40 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not saying that's right or wrong.

― they all are afflicted with a sickness of existence (Scik Mouthy), Thursday, May 9, 2013 9:40 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well, i'm saying that's wrong, and fuck 'em

why do you get so few of these complaints w/r/t other art forms? the other week i went to an avant-garde theatrical adaptation of the trial that involved walking by myself through east london, unexpected one-to-one encounters with actors etc

it is a bit different tho, people have heard the album before seeing a gig and that's their day to day connection with the band, their connection with their music. it's highly possible that people are into music but not particularly into performance or performance art. more's the pity i guess.

or they just didn't think it was good performance art.

The funny thing is that the music was may more fun and accessible than the versions on Shaking the Habitual. It was the authenticity/authorship question that got people riled up. I wonder if they'd have been happier with solemn drones as long as Olof was visibly prodding a laptop.

Lex is OTM in this thread.

I'm just sad I didn't get to go :-( Big respect to the Knife for not going down the well-trod path of so many electronic artists who stand on stage twiddling with a few knobs and acting like they're recreating the music live, as would a rock band. Live electronica is such a charade - most of the music is pre-programmed anyway, so why pretend? Play a CD and get a bunch of crazy dancers to jump around, turn it into a party - much more fun and honest. Standing behind a laptop on stage while playing music that quite clearly took hours of slow, meticulous sampling and experimentation just doesn't make sense - it's mapping rock band values onto electronic music, and yet it's been the main way to present live dance acts for years. 90% of the time I'd like to see, for example, an electronic band miming with toy instruments to a backing track than standing stock still behind a bunch of meaningless equipment.

"Music fans who don't get the same transgressive art interpretations of live music as I do are idiots" isn't a very helpful approach, though, is it? I think, by and large, that people are so used to shitty, formulaic iterations of live music that they're not comfortable with anything which steps outside this. Which is sad, obviously, but blaming them for not getting it is harsh and unproductive.

funny thing is with out-and-out dance acts no one complains either - i saw major lazer at the same venue a few days before and apart from dropping a few snippets of well-known anthems into the mix none of the music was being "created" "live" - instead there were dancers, lights, glitter guns, diplo and co embracing superstar dj poses etc - and the crowd were SO into it

sometimes people just need to hear harshness nick. i'm less interested in persuading them to change their minds as in telling them about themselves

I can mainly remember feeling disdain for dance acts who didn't change the records from the recorded ones, when I liked dance music which had a live offering.

"Music fans who don't get the same transgressive art interpretations of live music as I do are idiots" isn't a very helpful approach, though, is it?

They're idiots if they go and see THE KNIFE and then complain about it.

Well, quite.

I definitely prefer the new Major Lazer album to the new Knife album but maybe I'm just superficial that way.

Otherwise it comes down to what Chris Barber used to say; regardless of what music you're into, most people are basically "Max Bygraves fans," i.e. happy to stick with what they already know.

I mean if I went to see the London Symphony Orchestra or I dunno Laura Marling or something and nothing was being played live onstage and it was being obsfuscated with a load of dancers I'd be entitled to be annoyed but really at this point you should be prepared for a Knife gig to be pretty obtuse.

maybe some of them just thought it was shit.

Entirely possible.

it's mapping rock band values onto electronic music

It's the values of ALL non-electronic music, pretty much. I sometimes wonder if certain acts could be more creative with the way they recreate the sound but I doubt most of them are just whacking on a backing tape of the album. Actually it's modern laptop-based indie acts who tend to be the worst for this.

Laura Marling being obfuscated by a load of dancers would improve her music immeasurably.

I definitely prefer the new Major Lazer album to the new Knife album but maybe I'm just superficial that way.

it has its moments for sure but dude from vampire weekend doing jamaican patois is just ;_; ;_; ;_; ;_;

I think also, at this stage, anyone attending a Knife show should have some sort of idea of what they are (or aren't) letting themselves in for. The fact so many people are getting upset about this underlines precisely the Knife's conceptual approach to Shaking The Habitual - redefining definitions, challenging expectations; often to the point that it intimidates those with a more conservative view of how things 'should' be. The whole point of the Knife's steez seems to be: 'how can the world be changed for the better if so many of us feel threatened by anything outside of these set structures and confines. It's not so much criticising them in a 'wake up sheeple' way, so much as leading by example - you CAN have a 20min drone piece on your album, you CAN change the way a live show is presented, and by extension you CAN make a difference to gender perception and political mores if only you accept ideas from outside of these confines.

Xxposts

Doglatin you're talking about all this stuff like it's a get-out-of-jail free card, "we are redefining definitions and challenging expectations and intimidating those with a conservative view of how things should be" doesn't magically insulate you from people going, "actually I don't have a conservative view, I just don't think what you're doing is successful or worthwhile".

think the knife were big enough that loads of people who don't give a shit about anything except the next album prob bought their records. you can't expect people to buy into everything a band does but it is pretty dumb and ignorant, i agree, to rail against them for wanting to do whatever they want to do on stage.

live shows aren't really that related to recorded music - i'm often alienated by people's wild enthusiasm for festivals etc and most people i know who love music don't share this.

it's fair to criticise it obv - eg with such an emphasis on choreography, why was the dancing so community-project amateur rather than tightly rehearsed - but you have to criticise it on its own terms rather than stubbornly insisting a live show must be a pro forma exercise rigidly adhered to

i'm often alienated by people's wild enthusiasm for festivals etc

same

I mean by all means swallow the bullshit but it's pretty insulting to assume that everyone who doesn't rate the record/performance just doesn't appreciate/understand what they're doing.

(I'm really looking forward to the gig tonight but it's pretty obvious by now that the Knife are fuelled by colossal amounts of bullshit and self-importance).

My view on StH is not that it's particularly challenging or confrontational but that a firm producer would have cut it back to a really powerful 35-minute album. Whereas the record as it stands has plenty of arresting ideas, most of which are duly done to death by over-repetition.

things do fall out of people's frame of understanding xposts to lex. i mean it seems easy to say what dumb rubes all these people are but presumably there are times when everyone mistakes something being entirely out of their wheelhouse for it being irrevocably shit.

self included. you sort of know when you're doing it sometimes and push on regardless.

It’s a bit like what I reluctantly had to conclude after listening to Bish Bosch – yes, Scott, we KNOW you can do this, but you’ve literally done it to death, and is it too much or too bourgeois or decadent to want a record of 3-4 minute songs constructed on a recognisable pattern?

Nope, and neither walker nor anybody else has suggested that it is! Plenty of people offering that, no reason to insist that walker/the knife do.

Likewise, there are dozens of perfectly good Silent Shoutalikes out there you could go and see instead. Scott Walker and the Knife aren't obliged in any way to offer what Marcello is asking.

- and neither are their fans entitled to ask for it either. FWIW STH and Bish Bosch are my favourite albums of the last 6 months or so, so I'm going to disagree on this.

I mean "3-4 minute songs constructed on a recognisable pattern" has kinda been done too, why is Scott walker not allowed to make 3 whole Scott walkery albums?

Yeah, I see it in the round. Thank god someone wants to make challenging, somewhat self-important art. My need for catchy tunes is satisfied elsewhere. The difference between Knife and Scott is that they haven't done this kind of thing before and he has.

Doglatin you're talking about all this stuff like it's a get-out-of-jail free card, "we are redefining definitions and challenging expectations and intimidating those with a conservative view of how things should be" doesn't magically insulate you from people going, "actually I don't have a conservative view, I just don't think what you're doing is successful or worthwhile".

― Matt DC, Thursday, 9 May 2013 11:33 (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

If you don't like it, fine - I'm not saying you have to. If you prefer the Knife because they write catchy synth-pop that's cool. I completely understand why, to take an extent example, so many Scott Walker fans left him after hearing Tilt. But given STH's remit, I think these live shows do a lot to back-up their philosophies and statements. It's about challenging conceptions and hegemonies - and how can an artist do that so that it reflects the wider socio-political landscape without digging out an acoustic guitar and singing 'George Bush Sucks A Big One'?

The problem I have with StH and the surrounding interviews is there's a lot of tell don't show - witness our in-depth knowledge of gender theory! - whereas the show is the opposite. The points they're making are palpable in the performance so they don't need to be stated.

Except to all the people who didn't get it / like it.

http://www.splicetoday.com/music/three-cluttered-vacancies

Track review

The difference between Knife and Scott is that they haven't done this kind of thing before and he has.

Y'all forgot about the Darwin opera that fast?

Boom.

Yeah this "change of direction" kind of isn't